Go, Economy!

[Yoshi]

Wealth is what matters. New Jersey has a very strong teachers' union. The schools in my part of the state, an affluent one, are great - some of the best in the nation. The ones in Newark and Camden are very poor. I submit that the issue is not the union but the wealth of the area.

I would agree. I contend that the unions likely exacerbate the issues of the poorer areas in fact.

The second order effects of wealth on a child's education strike me as so obvious and important that it seems silly to discuss anything else before it. "Smash the union" will not solve this problem as long as people remain poor and are getting poorer.

I agree with this too, but if you have two problems, you don't fail to act on one, because the solution wouldn't fix the other.

[Advocate]

In a 2010 study by the Philadelphia Inquirer. Camden's average Teacher salary was $47,555, with a top teacher salary of $80,675. Enrollment was 12,923.

I submit that it might actually be what was said earlier ... teacher to student ratio.

http://www.philly.com/philly/educati...79293025015152

I wish the Inquirer would update to last years numbers, but this is what I have to work with for now. Also, leaving for work.

[Yoshi]

That's clearly one of the key factors, although a shit teacher couldn't teach a group of half a dozen students. And the class size aligns with diff's point about the income level.

[Advocate]

Oh I'm not disagreeing with him. Just helping.

[Diff-chan]

I agree with this too, but if you have two problems, you don't fail to act on one, because the solution wouldn't fix the other.

I think the union talk is mostly smoke and mirrors. In fact I think the problem is largely removed from the actual teachers. If there is anything wrong with the teachers, I think that it is because teaching is a low-prestige profession in this country, when it really should be the opposite.

Let's say there were no teacher's unions. Does anyone really think that teaching would then grow to some grand profession that attracts the best and brightest? It certainly didn't happen in other professions where unions were broken up, including professional ones. I would be more scared of a race to the bottom which would definitely exacerbate problems in poor districts.

It's easy to say "break the unions and pay teachers $100,000", but whose tax money is going to pay for that? Especially in the poor-ass districts. No the reality is those districts need to be less poor - then the schools will improve.

[Some Stupid Japanese Name]

so poor equals stupid?
I went to a private school. Annual tuition ranged from $2,000-$2,500 a year per student.
We had kids from wealthy families, kids from poorer families (like mine) who struggled to make the tuition, and kids from the city district who had been kicked out of those schools and had no where else to go (just to illustrate that we weren't all born with silver spoons and being groomed for the ivy league).
Though the school had a shit ton less money to spend than the public schools (I recall the funding back then to be around $10,000 per student for the local public schools), and our teachers were paid significantly less than the public school teachers, our regents scores and SATs and such blew the public schools out of the water.

[Diff-chan]

No, obviously poor isn't stupid.

I think private schools are a little different - anyone shelling out tuition is probably an engaged parent, and engaged parents tend to churn out better kids. The thing is - wealthier districts have more engaged parents. For obvious reasons. That is what I was talking about when I mentioned the second order effects of wealth.

I'm not speaking some bold unknown thing here. The correlation between SES and student outcomes has been studied for decades.

[Some Stupid Japanese Name]

So poor equals unengaged parents.

no pun intended.

[Bojack]

So poor equals unengaged parents.

no pun intended.

It is tough to be involved with your kid when you're working 80 hrs a week. Many parents make a choice between keeping the lights on or helping Billy with math homework.... if they can even understand the homework enough to help their kid in the 1st place.

[Razor Ramon]

Take money from each county, pool it, and distribute it evenly throughout the state. It'll never happen but it's a solution to the disparity of education dollars.