North Korean Rocket Launch (& New Nuke Test)

[Othello Harrington]

We should have dropped that fucking bomb on france then, goddamnit.

[Frogacuda]

Bold = it's all about the money and that's why it's not going to happen anytime soon. Which is the point I've been trying to make all along. I'm not really arguing with you, Frog. I'd much prefer going this route all over the world and get rid of polluting technologies. I just don't think it's going to happen in the near future.

The thing is, Fusion research has been repeatedly kneecapped, especially in America, for most of that time (And maybe I hear about this more because I have physicists in my family who follow these things, but it's really heartbreaking the promising projects that get killed RIGHT WHEN they're making a major breakthrough). Look at the Manhattan project, and see what we were able to get done in two years because we made it a priority.

It's one of those things that CAN happen, but it's not going to unless we actually fucking do it. Corporations have an ethical responsibility to their shareholders to make money by the end of the fiscal year, so they don't take on long-term research projects like that. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

Of course it isn't nearly as risky as fission and I wasn't arguing that it was. I said that people don't want a nuclear reactor in their backyard and no amount of you trying to convince them how safe it is will change that. People don't even want electrical power plants or lines near them because of fear (whether substantiated or not). STOP PUTTING SHIT IN BOLD BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AND I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. Holy christ are you infantile sometimes. I wasn't making a fission/fusion argument. Next time I won't use an example, okay?

I said that people who are afraid of nuclear fusion are pig-ignorant, and you used some example about nuclear fission and then paraphrased that. It reads like you didn't understand the distinction or somehow thought the example you were giving was relevant. Nuclear Fusion isn't going to be held up by protests. It's just not. Doesn't mean absolutely no one will bitch (people will complain when they build new roads, even), but without actual risk factors, it's going to be impotent.

I wasn't bolding stuff to be an asshole or be condescending, I was just really frustrated that it looked like you didn't even understand the distinction yet.

I understand where you're going with this. I really do. That doesn't change the fact that it's prohibitively expensive in really, really bad economic times and you're not going to be able to sell it to the public.

Well, what I'm saying is not so much that we should be starting this program now (although it's not a bad idea) but rather that we should have been aggressively pursuing it for the last 25 years and we didn't. We've cut programs that were making major breakthroughs time and time again. I'd almost go with a conspiracy theory, the timing has been so bad, but then I realize people can actually be that stupid.

Clearly, if there were lots of profit to be made someone would've pursued it privately.

Who gives a fuck? It's a long-term investment in our planet, our infrastructure, and even our safety. I think that falls under the umbrella of things our government worries about. Stop with the whole "It won't increase GE's third quarter profits" argument, because that's exactly what I've been saying.

It's not attractive to private businesses, and yet AMAZINGLY ENOUGH, it's a good idea anyway that will be profitable in the long run. For you to put so much faith in corporations in light of recent history is dumbfounding to me.

[Mr-K]

We should have dropped that fucking bomb on france then, goddamnit.

I don't get the France hate, the french rule.

[Othello Harrington]

Rule..what? exactly, what?

[YellerDog]

Robot produced techno, mostly! They do that pretty good. Our technology is not able to produce a Daft Punk, try as though we might.

[kingoffighters]

I invented cold fusion in your mom's butt.

EDIT: and fission too

[Frogacuda]

Rule..what? exactly, what?

Food and independent movies.

[Mr-K]

Girls

[haohmaru]

The thing is, Fusion research has been repeatedly kneecapped, especially in America, for most of that time (And maybe I hear about this more because I have physicists in my family who follow these things, but it's really heartbreaking the promising projects that get killed RIGHT WHEN they're making a major breakthrough). Look at the Manhattan project, and see what we were able to get done in two years because we made it a priority.

That's because it's a destructive power and our enemy was racing to get it, too. If we would've lost that arms race then the world would've been an entirely different place.

It's one of those things that CAN happen, but it's not going to unless we actually fucking do it. Corporations have an ethical responsibility to their shareholders to make money by the end of the fiscal year, so they don't take on long-term research projects like that. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

And I'm trying to tell you that's why it won't happen until there's money in it.

I said that people who are afraid of nuclear fusion are pig-ignorant, and you used some example about nuclear fission and then paraphrased that. It reads like you didn't understand the distinction or somehow thought the example you were giving was relevant. Nuclear Fusion isn't going to be held up by protests. It's just not. Doesn't mean absolutely no one will bitch (people will complain when they build new roads, even), but without actual risk factors, it's going to be impotent.

I wasn't bolding stuff to be an asshole or be condescending, I was just really frustrated that it looked like you didn't even understand the distinction yet.


Well, what I'm saying is not so much that we should be starting this program now (although it's not a bad idea) but rather that we should have been aggressively pursuing it for the last 25 years and we didn't. We've cut programs that were making major breakthroughs time and time again. I'd almost go with a conspiracy theory, the timing has been so bad, but then I realize people can actually be that stupid.

I said "nuclear reactor" and used an example of such to point out that the people of long island have paid for this plant 40x over and not used it despite the fact that nuclear power is essentially safe. Europe gets, what, 40+% of its power from nuclear sites? How many major accidents have there been in the U.S. and Europe combined? One? My point really wasn't fission vs. fusion, but more to the tune that people don't want this shit in their neighborhoods and they won't/don't and don't want to understand it. If you tell someone that there's a plant a mile away that's operating with temperatures hotter than the surface of our sun to power their toaster they aren't going to understand how safe it is nor are they going to want it in their backyard. You can't mask the ignorance of the general population because you think that they won't care. They will. If they can sit in town halls and argue for two years about a stop sign, they certainly are going to argue more fervently against a fusion, fission, coal or anything else in their neck of the woods. Have you ever participated in local government?

Who gives a fuck? It's a long-term investment in our planet, our infrastructure, and even our safety. I think that falls under the umbrella of things our government worries about. Stop with the whole "It won't increase GE's third quarter profits" argument, because that's exactly what I've been saying.

It's not attractive to private businesses, and yet AMAZINGLY ENOUGH, it's a good idea anyway that will be profitable in the long run. For you to put so much faith in corporations in light of recent history is dumbfounding to me.

I understand where you're coming from (and I think this is the 2nd or 3rd time I've said that) but in the *real world* it's not practical. No one wants to invest the billions and billions of dollars that are neccessary to bring this to reality and the billions more to build the plants to make it work. In an ideal place your idealism would work. Here on planet earth, however, it won't and it might be too late by the time humanity realizes the sacrifice is worth it.

I have no faith in corporations - but they are far more likely to make this happen than any government is. Hell, we can't even figure out how to feed 30% of the world's population despite having the food and you think we can make fusion power a reality across the globe?

And I won't "stop with the..." because it happens to be reality. If there's no money in it then no one will do it. Kind of like purifying salt water to provide drinking water to the masses - it's still not feasible because it's not profitable despite the fact that it's very possible.

And, just in case I'm still not being clear, I'm really not arguing with the position that these are steps we need to take. I just don't think it's going to realistically get done the way you are suggesting that it needs to. And maybe it does need to get done that way. I just don't think it will.

[Frogacuda]

If all you're trying to tell me is why it hasn't happened, and not trying to justify it not happening, then we probably aren't disagreeing as much as I'd thought. But it sounded initially like you were really opposed to government research and called it socialist and all that. The government has always funded scientific research (at least for the last 70 or so years), this is just an underfunded field, in my opinion.