TNL Fighting Game Debate Club

[StriderKyo]

All this talk makes me want to fire up Marvel 2. Anyone down? You can choose my team.

Wait, isn't that the game that dumbed supers down to one qcf and brought 6 buttons down to 4 for mass casual appeal? *Shakes gnarled fist*

[StriderKyo]

I moved all these posts into their own thread, since they had nothing to do with Mortal Kombat.

Now debate some fighting games.



What the fuck is up with that song?

[Rem]

Breathless isn't all that, it's pretty much abels raging demon. I never see people fall for that ultra, the only time I ever see it connect is point blank after a jump just like raging demon. His first ultra is better imo it has an easy as hell setup and does great damage. Also I love the name of this thread.

And about throws, throws are still a powerful tool in SF4 especially for certain characters. Bison, chun, guile etc would be shit without their respective throws they are hardly useless. 25% connect rate is A-ok for a move that does a tenth to an eighth of damage character depending.

[StriderKyo]

That's actually a good point, I forgot all about Raging Demon, there has always been an unblockable super. There is a difference in that Breathless travels faster and can be held. But still, I don't think I've ever watched a Super SFIV tournament where an Abel player won.

[Anthony]

They are not a powerful tool, they are 1 of 2 tools and the suck at it. Just because they are the only tool doesn't make them good tools.

[Dipstick]

That's actually a good point, I forgot all about Raging Demon, there has always been an unblockable super. There is a difference in that Breathless travels faster and can be held. But still, I don't think I've ever watched a Super SFIV tournament where an Abel player won.

The problem with this is some nasty distortion by one or two top players at top events. If you have Justin Wong traveling to every tournament of significance and winning... well, there's not much room for anyone else. He also plays Rufus, who is a good (and stupid) character.

That moreso than anything else is why you rarely see someone like Chun or Abel (who are top tier characters) winning tournaments -- the top player himself just isn't playing them.

[StriderKyo]

The problem with this is some nasty distortion by one or two top players at top events. If you have Justin Wong traveling to every tournament of significance and winning... well, there's not much room for anyone else. He also plays Rufus, who is a good (and stupid) character.

That moreso than anything else is why you rarely see someone like Chun or Abel (who are top tier characters) winning tournaments -- the top player himself just isn't playing them.

Okay, but even aside from winning outright, it's not like the winners brackets are chock full o' Abels. I see more E. Hondas, Rufuses, Balrogs or Chuns. If the move was unbalancing the game, then it would naturally bring more Abels to the top. It might look different in a year when everyone's sorted the matchups, but I really do think this is as balanced a 2D fighter as we've seen. There are obviously some dud characters, but if a dedicated player can bring Zangief, Rose or Adon to the top in addition to the high tier of 7-8 characters, that's a pretty balanced game.

One day, someone will unlock T.Hawk.

[A Robot Bit Me]

You don't always have your fingers set to hit Jab + Short when the throw comes out. If you had a mapped button (like those extra two on each 360 stick I've seen) I can't even FATHOM any top player getting thrown what with those huge tech windows.

This doesn't make sense. How is hitting one button way off to the right easier than hitting Jab+Short, the two buttons your fingers naturally rest on?

I didn't mean those, I meant Abel's ridiculous Ultra 2.

This is not that good. It isn't even his best Ultra.

The only one I'll give you is CvS2 and that's because short jumps exist in that game. That reason alone makes jumping way safer than any other game. From my personal experience in the short time I played that game at tournament-level I've rarely ever seen anyone who isn't Yun, Cammy or Blanka do normal jumps. Even Blanka and Cammy were more short jumps than anything else.

It doesn't sound like you were playing at tournament level, love. CvS2 saw only one Yun of relevance throughout its entire run. He was in the company of King and Kyosuke in the cellar of the tier list. The CvS2 normal jumpers are Vega (jump speed, block stun, crazy hitbox), Blanka and Bison (filthy crossups). All of Cammy's jump-ins are trash in CvS2. What the hell game were you playing?

SFIV Option Select crouch tech is a bigger problem than the tech window. Yeah, 3S had the same thing, but the difference is that most 3S characters* can not deal big damage off of jabs and shorts while a huge chunk of the SFIV cast can including, as luck would have it, the two characters with the best jabs in Rog and Chun. Trying to bait and counter hit crouch tech against those two is as difficult as it is risky.

*= The notable exception is Ken, but hit confirming one or two low shorts into super is not in the realm of Rog and Chun Li's bullshit free Ultras.

[Rem]

Okay, but even aside from winning outright, it's not like the winners brackets are chock full o' Abels. I see more E. Hondas, Rufuses, Balrogs or Chuns. If the move was unbalancing the game, then it would naturally bring more Abels to the top. It might look different in a year when everyone's sorted the matchups, but I really do think this is as balanced a 2D fighter as we've seen. There are obviously some dud characters, but if a dedicated player can bring Zangief, Rose or Adon to the top in addition to the high tier of 7-8 characters, that's a pretty balanced game.

One day, someone will unlock T.Hawk.

People bitch about abel twice as much than he actually wins, there wasn't a single abel in the top 16 at evo (nor a balrog). Three amazing abels made into the top 32 but that's it, the list is actually impressively diverse. Abel is like Ryu for as much as everybody hates them they don't win that often. Obviously daigo does, but aside from him not so much. Also not a single rog in the top 32, character seems to really struggle at the highest level.

[Dipstick]

Balrog isn't that good. He's too linear to really be a threat at high levels of play and can get zoned out hard by fireball characters. His pokes and footsies are really good but all of the top tier can either get around that or can actually keep up with him straight-up.