Crime & Punishment

[Opaque]

What did these two guys do?

[icarusfall]

One punched his girlfriend in the face over a minor disagreement.

The other was a personal offense.

[Advocate]

What did these two guys do?

piss him off.

[icarusfall]

I would have no moral objection to killing someone if the situation called for it.

But I'm against capital punishment on a state level.

[Diff-chan]

So you're directly giving credit to law enforcement for all industrialized progress? I think it's getting comical how completely overstated you think their importance is. How about the United States? Most law enforcement was local people pitching in and not centrally run for a good portion of its development. You guys seem to have done well for yourself IIRC.

Not police per se but the rule of law is one of the core principles of civilization.

[Nash]

What about it?

I just think it's ironic that an open law-breaker is such a staunch supporter of the police.

Also, your entire argument is premised on the notion that people are just waiting to break the law, and the reason they don't is because cops are around. A lot of people don't do it because they're decent people who respect others who they share their community with.

Also, the police are not a deterrent to people who don't give a fuck. I'm a prosecutor and I deal with criminals every day. A lot of them are repeat offenders because they feel they have no other choice. For example, people who have convictions for DUIs and have their license suspended will still drive, despite cops patrolling the city and looking for any reason to pull someone over, because they need to work, and they need to drive to get to work. Hell, some of them will borrow a car with fake registration tabs, knowing the tabs are fake, just so they can get to work.

[Opaque]

I just think it's ironic that an open law-breaker is such a staunch supporter of the police.

I could see how it is.

I just feel like there's a significant difference between what I do and what I'm thankful police stop. People have been checking out books at public libraries for centuries, that's publicly funded piracy where one copy is sold and then a near limitless number of people can read it without ever giving the author or publisher any money; meanwhile it's illegal to steal a book. Laws aren't always perfect because people write them and we're not perfect, it's not the police's fault that it's such a way.

The real moral is that some stuff isn't black and white. Treating it as if it is won't get anyone anywhere.

Also, your entire argument is premised on the notion that people are just waiting to break the law, and the reason they don't is because cops are around. A lot of people don't do it because they're decent people who respect others who they share their community with.

Human history and all sociological experiment supports otherwise.

That's not to say that law is the only thing that keeps people in line, more often it's religion and fear of hell or divine punishment, but really what is the difference?

Also, the police are not a deterrent to people who don't give a fuck. I'm a prosecutor and I deal with criminals every day. A lot of them are repeat offenders because they feel they have no other choice. For example, people who have convictions for DUIs and have their license suspended will still drive, despite cops patrolling the city and looking for any reason to pull someone over, because they need to work, and they need to drive to get to work. Hell, some of them will borrow a car with fake registration tabs, knowing the tabs are fake, just so they can get to work.

Well of course those people exist, I have professor who's a lawyer and used to sit on the bench and he's heard shit like "it's not my fault I was driving drunk, it's the cops fault for catching me."

Many people do give a fuck and even if only ten percent of them did keeping those people in check would still be better than not keeping them in check. I'm sure you all know at least one person that slows down in a school zone not because they're worried about hitting a high school student but because they don't want a ticket. Anyone, ever, who has slowed down because they see a cop on the freeway is evidence that many people only do what is right when they are worried about being punished. Of course there's a large difference between speeding and killing someone and I'm sure with a lack of law enforcement much more petty crime would increase than violent crime.

[Gooch]

We don't have unlimited money to throw at this, so we have to prioritize the spending of that money based on the most likely to contribute.

Yes we do. We don't, however, have unlimited real resources to throw at this, or, arguably the real cost of deploying more real resources to this area overrides the real benefits provided. Money is not an economic resource, please stop saying these silly things and frame your comments appropriately.

[Fe 26]

yeah Yoshi, you fucking moron

[Gohron]

Also, your entire argument is premised on the notion that people are just waiting to break the law, and the reason they don't is because cops are around. A lot of people don't do it because they're decent people who respect others who they share their community with.

Most people learn to be decent by fear of punishment, if only in their youth. My parents taught me the values of being a good human being, but they also enforced breaking of the rules with some type of discipline.

I also think that if there wasn't any police around, people would break the law far more frequently. Nobody is perfect and regular people can do some pretty bad things, but they don't do them because the risk of facing consequences is not worth it. Maybe a huge police force isn't the answer to deterring crime, but NYC has done a good job of cleaning up the city and I'm sure at least some of that has to do with the fact that there are police everywhere.