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Thread: Fighting Game Tournament Discussion or Something

  1. I didn't watch SF4. That's terrible.
    Boo, Hiss.

  2. If it was anyone else I might actually believe that monitor was lagging.

  3. Just a little thing I wrote in a discussion about the new guilty gear and simplification of games. It is DEFINATELY tl;dr territory, but I thought some parts were worth reposting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Other guy who isn't me
    Also, to address this more clearly:

    I draw the line at what I feel is easy to learn. Making it so you can do everything your character has to offer (outside of combos) immediately really makes a difference to how people feel about a game -- think about how many people are willing to play Brawl, and how many people like how simply it controls. (I do think Brawl is unnecessarily simple (and I may well be wrong about that), but I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about it.) Since a lot of how hard people feel a game is has to do with their initial impressions of how much they can do, making the controls simple and making all your basic system options and character-specific options easy to execute goes a long way to making something feel easy to learn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destin
    Melee/Brawl is a great example! Beginning to Intermediate barely knew the difference, it is only at high level (I'm not a smash player, but this is how I have heard it explained) did you learn how to really move and cancel every attacks recovery. And then the game and movement really opened up. But nobody complained when they didn't know this (I sure didn't). It still felt like a complete game and I could more or less play with people who were doing the advanced stuff. And when I sorta learned it with Marth, it was great fun to suddenly have so much movement opened up to me. If I could just hold forwards and I had the same speed and movement, it would not have been as much fun.

    A big stumbling block many people have that I tend to think of as a Sirlin complex, is confusing the purely mathematical side of the decision making in fighting games with the playing artistic side of it. Sirlin made a very interesting choice in HD remix somewhere along the way which made it clear to me the difference between the art of a fighting game, and the logic of a fighting game. He changed Yoga flame from hcb (63214) p, to qcb (214) p. It made sense, it was easier to do, matched his new high flame, and sim needed a quick way to do a fast high flame to deal with vega. Everything was very logical.



    And he completely missed a large part of what made street fighter so great.



    He logically changed a motion to qcb from a motion that was called "the yoga flame" for a generation. He missed why it is more rewarding to players of all levels to execute a move twice as far to get a bigger flame. Why that is intuitive and amusing. Your brain to a degree remembers it better. If I want a small flame, I do a quarter circle. If I want a BIGGER flame, I do a half circle.

    This level of elegance that went into super turbo was ignored for very sensible reasons, and lost so much because of it. It didn't see the difference of it being a game of speed chess, and it being an immersive experience. It took something that perhaps couldn't be understood easily in argument by players, but made inherent sense to the designer. (I could have attacked the zangief 360 change to a pote buster, but that seemed too easy).

    To bring this back for you, why is pushing a button important? Because instead of passively holding down something, you tap a button, and your character pops out. You push an action, and your character does an action. You feel in control. You are not just playing a mind-game, you are controlling a character, and the mind games are part of that. The experience is more immersive. Why should an FRC have a small window? Because it is a very special way of canceling. There is a root RC that exists for most of the moves that have frcs, you can do it, it costs 50% meter, and it feels normal. But if you want that special, extra good cancel, you have to do something that is a bit difficult. Just like your character would trying to get it just right. That feels better. It's the artistic side of the fighting game. It might be a bit forgotten or buried by players who play seriously for so many years (myself included), but it pulls you in, in ways you are probably not realizing.

    Complexity of decisions is important, and great! It is very important to the longevity of the game. But playing a game that is merely a series of glorified nash equilibrium balances would not be for me, and luckily guilty gear is not that.
    Check out Mr. Businessman
    He bought some wild, wild life
    On the way to the stock exchange
    He got some wild, wild life

  4. You made a typo; Yoga flame in ST was HCF, not HCB.
    It was only changed to HCB once Dhalsim appeared in the Alpha series.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by kedawa View Post
    You made a typo; Yoga flame in ST was HCF, not HCB.
    It was only changed to HCB once Dhalsim appeared in the Alpha series.
    I thought they switched to HCB in ST from HCF previously, must have been mistaken. Thanks though.
    Check out Mr. Businessman
    He bought some wild, wild life
    On the way to the stock exchange
    He got some wild, wild life

  6. Nice write up.

    Also got my pools for Persona at EVO. I have my goal, which is make it to the Semi-finals in winners to fight Die-Chan or Lord Knight or Tomo most likely. It's doable but will be very difficult, so I think it's a good goal to have.

    Like Persona you can learn all the tricks for a character, but knowing all the setups, how to get out of other setups, I don't think it's overly simplified. But since this was the first one I really focused on maybe things just came harder to me than they would for other people?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Thief Silver View Post
    Nice write up.

    Also got my pools for Persona at EVO. I have my goal, which is make it to the Semi-finals in winners to fight Die-Chan or Lord Knight or Tomo most likely. It's doable but will be very difficult, so I think it's a good goal to have.

    Like Persona you can learn all the tricks for a character, but knowing all the setups, how to get out of other setups, I don't think it's overly simplified. But since this was the first one I really focused on maybe things just came harder to me than they would for other people?
    I have no idea, I never played persona. How long has the game been out, 2 years?
    Check out Mr. Businessman
    He bought some wild, wild life
    On the way to the stock exchange
    He got some wild, wild life

  8. I think about yeah, in America for almost one, in Japan I think it was out there the march before, so more like a year and a half. The rankings of characters just changed a bit recently with Shadow Labrys particularly moving higher up. Chie and Narukami being moved to their own top top top tier followed by Mitsuru, Slab, Aigis, Teddie.

  9. For those who may be interested h ere are my pools:

    KoF H54 - 8 AM Saturday

    P4A a31 - 8 AM Friday

    SF E18 - 4 PM Friday

  10. Anthony, I'll be honest... I made the same mistake when I started playing too. Then you realize that execution matters in a fighting game partially because that kind of execution matters in a real fight. It's not enough to know what your opponent is going to do -- you have to realize it quickly enough to act on it, and have the experience to execute what you are going to do cleanly.

    I think that's part of the problem with modern FGs though -- they're trying to make feedback to the player more obvious, and it's a lot easier to figure out how consistently you are doing a combo versus how well you are judging certain situations or how good your movement is or how clean your spacing is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thief Silver View Post
    Also got my pools for Persona at EVO. I have my goal, which is make it to the Semi-finals in winners to fight Die-Chan or Lord Knight or Tomo most likely. It's doable but will be very difficult, so I think it's a good goal to have.
    Screw that; whenever I see a bracket -- whether it's free or it's a pool of death -- I'm thinking "man I want to destroy these fools". So go do it. And then do it in semis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thief Silver View Post
    Like Persona you can learn all the tricks for a character, but knowing all the setups, how to get out of other setups, I don't think it's overly simplified. But since this was the first one I really focused on maybe things just came harder to me than they would for other people?
    I think the issue is more that setups and sequences in P4A are not as nuanced as they are in a game like GG or MB, mainly because a character's options are more limited and their options are rather good on their own. Honestly, my biggest problem with P4A is that it seems like every player for a given character goes for the same stuff; some just do it better than others. That and how limited neutral can be (especially compared to something like GG, which can be absolutely insane -- and really hard to get a grip on).

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