Team Fortress 2 = Free-to-play Forever

[Spent]

But even TFC was dumbed down compared to QWTF.

I wish we could get an escort mission like Hunted in TF2. I know we have payload maps... but the payload can't be killed...

TF2 also needs Rock2 badly. How it has existed for five years without Rock2 is beyond me.

[Diff-chan]

It's true that the Medic was probably overpowered in TFC, but Valve's response was to gimp it entirely and take away options.

And that seems to be what drove TF2's development - cut down options, streamline, simplify. I can see why they did this - they wanted to make each class distinct, to make sure everyone had a place. I remember reading an interview with Walker in 07 that said just that. But they ended up removing a lot of the richness of the TF experience. They went too far. I remember during the pre-release beta, Valve just removed friendly fire from the game because people were using it in ways they didn't intend, especially regarding Spies.

Valve sort of did the same thing with DOD Source. I really don't think they are a developer you can count on for high level play, and haven't been for a while. They're great for singleplayer and casual multiplayer, though.

[jyoung]

TF2 cut down options, streamline, simplify

Day Of Defeat Source, despite being stupidly simple, was much more fun than Team Fortress 2. I don't know why other than the fact that the Kar98 gun makes every game it's in 100000x better.

[Fe 26]

I think some of the changes made between TFC and TF2 should have been expected. You're not going to get a mass market game with the level of weapon's physics abuse that the other two had.

I mean sure, quake technically had it, but I don't think it was planned into the game. Most gamers don't want to have to abuse the engine to be good at the multplayer aspect.

[MechDeus]

Most gamers don't want to have to abuse the engine to be good at the multplayer aspect.

You don't play many multiplayer games, do you?

[bVork]

We've already had this discussion in every TNL TF thread. How is does TFC play slower when the entire game is based around crazy movement with grenade jumps? (both normal frag nades and conc). Outside of the classes, TFC is all about player movement - that's what made the game unique. TF2 completely removes this. There are no grenades, and outside of a dumbed down soldier rocket jump, there's no crazy player movement - its gone. TFC is also centered on CTF gameplay where TF2 is more about lame ass control points. Maps like Badlands and Dustbowl are abominations of the originals too.

How long does it take to complete an objective in TFC? That's where I'm arguing that it's slower - most TF2 rounds are done inside of five minutes. As for the maps, I think they're better. One-way objectives are the best kind. Why? Because there's no such thing as a stalemate. Also, you forgot the sticky-jumping Demoman and the double-jumping Scout. Nowhere near as crazy as TFC's movement, but three classes with advanced movement are more than enough. There's no need for idiocy like TFC's sniper launch.

TF played this way for nearly 10 years - but basically there were only 2 games in the series (TF/TFC) and they were essentially mods of Quake 1 and HalfLife. The fans were teased a sequel for years (Duke Nukem Forever type long), TF2 finally comes out and completely changes everything. Case in point, it pissed a lot of people off. TF2 is the same in name only really. Its a completely different game. Ask any hardcore TFC fan and theyll tell you the same. TF2 is really the ultimate example of dumbing down a once crazy and highly skilled based shooter for the masses.

I think that TF2 is what all the previous Fortress games should've been - it finally balanced all the classes to make them all viable. How many people played Scout in TFC?

Back in the day, I played in TFC tourneys and several clans and almost all of those people I keep in touch with hate TF2. We played TFC for a good 4-5 years.

Of course people who played it for half a decade are going to be upset with TF2. Anything other than TFC with new graphics would not suffice. Hell, I even remember people bitching when the "1.5" update came for TFC that redid the class models.

Go to 2:09 and watch the medic fly in and steal the flag. Pure skilled based play. That is TFC to a tee. (If you dont know - that flash of light is a conc nade exploding. You have to prime the nade and release it just right and it will blast you forward. The player does 3 conc jumps in a row on that bit. Its not easy to do - your timing has to be insanely on point. The vid shows conc nade counters when some of the other classes are shown.)

A conc jumping medic should not be the best flag capturing class in the game.

[Destro777]

The fact that medic and scout are basically the same class is pretty much irrelevant. Who cares? I dont see how offensive medics are an issue. You rarely had to heal anyone in TFC - it wasnt designed around that like TF2 is. The main problem is they turned the TF franchise into something entirely different with TF2. TFC fans wanted full fledged sequel or fully realized game for that matter, one that will probably never get made now - like I said TF/TFC were basically mods of other games. Ive said my piece.

I really don't think they [Valve] are a developer you can count on for high level play, and haven't been for a while. They're great for singleplayer and casual multiplayer, though.

Yeah thats very true. I used to be the biggest fan of Valve's multiplayer with TFC, DOD, and CS. The source versions are the same game with the same exact maps + they ended up worse in a lot of ways compared to the originals. TF2 let me down. I was hoping those 3 series would have evolved like how the Battlefield franchise does with each installment. Why dont we have a more modern take on Counter Strike after all these years with new maps and new objectives? Valve fell off completely in the hardcore multi dept.

[Tain]

Difficult grenade jumps being really useful sounds... fun!

Most gamers don't want to have to abuse the engine to be good at the multplayer aspect.

"Abusing an engine" is pretty much "playing a video game."

[Fe 26]

You assholes can't see past your own noses.

abusing flaws in a game has never been a major part of main stream gaming.

Acting like it should be a part of a game, and crying when it isn't, is mind boggling short sited.


Seriously, why would anyone put that shit into a game that they want to get huge sales out of? Why would anyone make a game that only the top 1/4 of your consumers is going to be able to master if you want to make a ton of money?

Its like you guys are arguing that McDonald's should put hot sauce on all their burgers because some consumers like hot food, and then citing people who love Tabasco as a counter example when I say that would be stupid if they want to maximize sales.

"hur dur, you don't eat many tacos, do you?"

[Diff-chan]

The shit I'm talking about has nothing to do with engine abuse. I just think they dumbed down the game too much.

Besides, stuff like SF2 combos and Quake rocket jumping was originally engine abuse. Don't underestimate it.