Kickstarter's All-purpose Speculatory Thread of Dreams

[Frogacuda]

I'm not sure what part he thinks I'm missing, since my life is clearly worth more to me than the cost of my electric bill.

Let's play a game. You ever do logic and truth trees in school? Break this down for me into a logical argument that begins with "My air conditioner has value" and ends with "Therefore Kickstarter is not an investment."

I want to see how these dots connect in your head. Come on.

[Diff-chan]

An air conditioner is not an investment. Paying an electricity bill is not investing in AC. Your AC is a depreciating asset. Of course the fact that they are assets means that they deliver some benefits, value, or use. The whole point of an investment is that it delivers some future real return. A return is something more than what you put in (adjusted for time value). I pay my electricity bill so that I receive electricity. I buy a game so that I receive the game. If I buy Metal Slug AES on the idea that it will go up in value, it is an investment of course.

Of course the future real return may not be strictly monetary (think of government investing in education, even though this has a real money purpose in that it is investing in future taxpayers). But my point was that if I back Mighty No 9 in 2013, I am paying to receive Mighty No 9 in year whatever. I'm not actually getting any return from this. Does one consider preordering a game at GameStop an investment?

[James]

I honestly don't understand how this is even a conversation. Good investments return increased value. That's it, that's all there is to the idea. All the rest is made-up rules, like "walking simulators aren't games". The definition of the value received from the investment isn't defined in monetary terms except in specific instances. Admitted, those are very common instances, but it's not a 100% dominance of the concept. A side-effect of this is that you don't work on a one-to-one exchange in currency (currency being defined as time, effort, money, etc.) So yeah, you can spend money and get increased value back in a non-monetary sense.

[Frogacuda]

An air conditioner is not an investment. Paying an electricity bill is not investing in AC.

But that's meaningless. No one said that all exchanges of money for value are investments. Yoshi's confusing the existential quantifier (i.e. "some") for the universal quantifier (i.e. "all") and I called him on it.

For example, just because Yoshi doesn't "invest" in air conditioning, doesn't mean that we can't invent a scenario where one would. If he invested $500 in an air conditioning company that agreed to offer him free AC for the life of the company, I'd consider that an investment, even though the reward is not financial. It still has value.

Of course the future real return may not be strictly monetary (think of government investing in education, even though this has a real money purpose in that it is investing in future taxpayers).

And that IS the core of my point right there. That one can understand that a ROI may not be strictly fincancial, but could still have an equivalent financial "worth." And that worth is something Yoshi has already conceded by virtue of his habit of exchanging money to get it.

But my point was that if I back Mighty No 9 in 2013, I am paying to receive Mighty No 9 in year whatever. I'm not actually getting any return from this.

And in the case of Mighty No. 9, you'd probably be mostly right. This is a case where the backer buy-in is the same as the retail cost, and it's a case where it's very likely the game could have been funded by some other means. So the value equation is pretty poor. I completely agree in this particular example case that it's a poor investment, and I think most backers would probably agree with the benefit of hindsight.

But there are cases of games that could only have been made thanks to Kickstarter, and some of these games are far more valuable to me than other games I could simply go out and purchase. In this case, allowing these particular games to get made has a tremendous reward for me. Furthermore, adding to the budgets of these games offers the ability to increase the quality of the game and thus further adds to the value I get back. In some cases, I'm also able to buy in at a lower cost than retail, and/or get other rewards not available at retail, so all these things can offer me a return greater than what I put in.

[YellerDog]

I look forward to getting Mighty Number Nine for a shiny nickle when the Humble Bundle rolls around.

[James]

Exclusive physical case for Bloodstained. I'm expecting that to work out pretty nicely, honestly. The physical release of Shenmue III would have done ok for itself too, but I just couldn't bring myself to be all that interested.

[Yoshi]

Yoshi's confusing the existential quantifier (i.e. "some") for the universal quantifier (i.e. "all") and I called him on it.

Excuse me? I'm going to quote this for a third time to help you get your facts straight on who called out whose universal quantifer:

It's a an investment, with all the risk that term implies.

[icarusfall]

Yoshi just wanted to make a feelings-are-for-faggots side joke back there and now he's caught up in it.

[Frogacuda]

Excuse me? I'm going to quote this for a third time to help you get your facts straight on who called out whose universal quantifer:

You understand, of course, that the words following the quantifier are also relevant, correct? Saying "All investments involve risk" is not the same thing as saying "All rewards are the result of risk."

[Yoshi]

You were the one that made a categorically incorrect statement, so take your condescending bullshit and fuck off.