Calling all Christians!

[Thief Silver]

Well I believe that there may be a god, and I was Catholic. Starting a few days ago, I have denounced myself as Catholic, and taken up Buddhism.

[Captain Vegetable]

Crackpot theory.

Faith is a concept that has with modern times become, less and less a persuasive reason for people to get their lives together, draw inspiration from, or even to just simply exist. I got into a massive disscusion with my friends abotu this a few a weeks ago and in a moment of total and utter clarity (well, crackpot clarity) we decided that its all part of the plan.

Check this out, Hey-sus.

If God created us in his image, and god is perfect, yet we are not perfect could we not get there?

What is perfection? I think nothing sums up perfection in this world quite like a selfless act.

What is faith? Training wheels.

Abe lincoln once stopped a train on a campaign trip so he could move an injured pig out of the way. A reporter said to him, "Wow that was such a selfless act." Lincoln responded, "No, there is no such thing as a selfless act, I just couldn't live with myself knowing I had done nothing to help the pig."

No one in the history of the world, has committed a truly selfless act. People cite faith, and the belief's as reasons to give them strength to commit selfless acts. Throughout history the bible has said have faith, have faith. But the concept of faith is selfish. It is a reason to get YOU through day, or through a rough time, or that split second when you jump in front of a bullet to save someone.


So I ask, what would it mean to you if someone were to commit a truly selfless act, outside the boundries of faith, and guilt, and understanding? Just completely and utterly selfless.

Wouldn't that be perfection?

Well its just a weird late night crackpot theory, but I thought I'd just share it here and see what people thought.

This theory, though completly valid, is based soley on Egoism, that is the belief that everyone is motivated by seeking their true self interests.

The companion notion is Altruism, or the belief that people are motivated by benifiting others while sacrificing self.

I believe that it is a mistake to found a theory based soley on either. Do some people behave in accordance with your theory? Certainly, without a doubt; however, it is fataly flawed to apply that line of thinking to everyone.

Mr. Lincoln is wrong. There is such a thing as a selfless act. The problem in understanding this from a Egoist point of view is that all voluntary action produces some kind of benifit for the doer. Hence, Egoism dictates that that self-fulfilment is the driving force, and not the inconcequential byproduct. In a selfless act, or what is understood as a selfless act (there is no such thing in so far that in order to do something, self must be involved, but this is a symantics issue, and not a core understanding issue), the priority is placed on benifiting others. Does the self benifit? Certainly. But that doesn't make it an egoistical act.

It is this common misconception that you're basing your theories on and for that it is flawed.

If you don't mind me asking, what bible do you go by? How can you totally trust something that has been tampered with & changed so much throught history?

JM

I consult all versions, outside of the ones that have been horribly mangeled (New World Translation, etc.). When I study the Bible, it would not be uncommon for you to see me with a New King James, King James, New Living Translation, New American Standard Bible, New International Version, Strong's Exhaustive Bible Concordance and Dictionary, and a note book sprawled out on the floor in front of me. I also use an Integrated Greek Translation Bible, so I can see the Greek tenses and understand the English better (example: The difference between "brother" family member, and "brother" my countrymen).

Bible study, for me, is a serious endevor. I don't seek stories or some type of topical application. I search for meaning. And there is no better language than Greek to convey precise meaning. As God would have it, His Bible was written in Greek. As such I look for the specific meanings in all of the texts, paying particular attention to the Greek used and tenses thereof.

If you were to ask which is my favorite translation, I'd say New King James. It's far from perfect, and it mistranslates the Greek in places, but not so much that the meaning is mangled or miscommunicates ideas to a layman.

P.S. There is more evedence to suggest the Bible has maintained the same wordage through the years than there is to suggest that it has been changed or tampered with in any way.

[Adrian]

A friend and I were in London on sunday, and on the way back we passed this preacher.

"We are all sinners!1 The only salvation is through Christ!!1one" he says to this young guy walking past who replies,

"No mate, i'm a muslim"

"Then you're a sinner!"

"Whatever, fuck you."

"Cease these sinful words!1"

Or words to that effect.

You guys may say that God has his followers relay the 'word' to us but i've never, not once come across anyone who has been able to convince me.

Quick question, I think that the old testament is big pile of outdated shit (just being honest) whilst the new testament has a nice message which I more or less live my life by without realising it.

1. Am I being unfair?

2. Could I still be christian with this viewpoint?

[Captain Vegetable]

Quick question, I think that the old testament is big pile of outdated shit (just being honest) whilst the new testament has a nice message which I more or less live my life by without realising it.

1. Am I being unfair?

Hmmm. Unfair might not be the correct word. What, exactly, are you trying to ask? Is it short-sighted or closed minded for you to reject the OT?

Eh...I'd say it's a bit presumtuous. But unfair? I doubt it.

2. Could I still be christian with this viewpoint?

Being Christian isn't about believing the stories in the Bible, it's about loving Jesus Christ and recognising you need Him and the salvation He offers. Everything else can wait until after this.

There are people who know of God, and believe He's there, and then there are those who know God. Even demons believe there is only one God--and tremble. It is the Christian who knows God, loves Him and His commandments, and seeks to please Him by following them.

So, yeah. You can be a Christian without believing the OT, but like I said, it's a bit presumptuous. Besides, if you were a Christian and loved God, you'd seek to know him more through the OT, as it accounts for His character, where the NT accounts for His love of us. You can't really know what Jesus is about with one piece missing.

[frostwolf ex]

Crackpot theory.

Faith is a concept that has with modern times become, less and less a persuasive reason for people to get their lives together, draw inspiration from, or even to just simply exist. I got into a massive disscusion with my friends abotu this a few a weeks ago and in a moment of total and utter clarity (well, crackpot clarity) we decided that its all part of the plan.

Check this out, Hey-sus.

If God created us in his image, and god is perfect, yet we are not perfect could we not get there?

What is perfection? I think nothing sums up perfection in this world quite like a selfless act.

What is faith? Training wheels.

Abe lincoln once stopped a train on a campaign trip so he could move an injured pig out of the way. A reporter said to him, "Wow that was such a selfless act." Lincoln responded, "No, there is no such thing as a selfless act, I just couldn't live with myself knowing I had done nothing to help the pig."

No one in the history of the world, has committed a truly selfless act. People cite faith, and the belief's as reasons to give them strength to commit selfless acts. Throughout history the bible has said have faith, have faith. But the concept of faith is selfish. It is a reason to get YOU through day, or through a rough time, or that split second when you jump in front of a bullet to save someone.


So I ask, what would it mean to you if someone were to commit a truly selfless act, outside the boundries of faith, and guilt, and understanding? Just completely and utterly selfless.

Wouldn't that be perfection?

Well its just a weird late night crackpot theory, but I thought I'd just share it here and see what people thought.

I am a little concerned with yoru operational definitons here. I have always understoood the term "Perfection" to be a pure ideal when dealing with physical things. All things degrade to entropy and all matter changes forms, so i think perfection refers more to a full (and physically impossible for normal things) state of pure, undiminished function uncompromised with any flaws or wasted energy. So for me perfection is more of a mechanical term than a term referring to any act, selfless or not.

Second, i am confused with your use of the term selfless in regards to perfection, why would such an act be perfect? because it is a pure act of altruism, I would be inclined to say that first of all, all of our actions are not just motivated by cognitive states, but by what we are conditioned to do. So guessing the motivation of the behavior is presumptuous, they may have had nothign to gain, but prior conditioning may be what affected how the person reacted, so the act was not inherently pure. Second, selfless and selfish are dangerous words because they carry a value judgement, selfish is inherently negative, and it assumes that a person has time to weigh all the possible outcomes,and choose one that rewards them more than another course of action. "Faith" in this case serves as another layer of conditioning, so while the behavior of jumping in front of a bullet, or saving a child form a burning building, or whatever, but i would say your person who did the act without the benefit of religious faith, did so because of another form of conditioning,and as such their act equates(on your reckoning) that of the person with faith. Both actions are motivated by how a person gets themselves through the day, its just a question of what conditioned them to act.

[Captain Vegetable]

Thank God for frostwolf! I thought I was going this alone. Master of 7s hasn't turned up yet (he's vacationing, I believe), and Hero and Lhadatt are off someplace else.

Thanks.

[Saint of Killers]

Quick question, I think that the old testament is big pile of outdated shit (just being honest) whilst the new testament has a nice message which I more or less live my life by without realising it.

1. Am I being unfair?

2. Could I still be christian with this viewpoint?

I think it's pretty much impossible to accept both the Old and New Testaments and Christians are just fooling themselves. They're clearly not the same god. You've got an angry, fire and brimstone, spiteful god, and then all of a sudden he turns into this peace loving hippie god?

Christianity would be alot more credible if it hadn't tried to shoehorn the old Hebrew god with his baggage into a new and totally different religion.

[Captain Vegetable]

Saint, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Leave the Bible talk to me. If you don't want to believe it, fine, but don't go making stuff up based on your limited information and flawed perception to rationalize your dislike for it.

"I don't want to," is a much better answer than, "I don't want to because..."

[Adrian]

I think it's pretty much impossible to accept both the Old and New Testaments and Christians are just fooling themselves. They're clearly not the same god. You've got an angry, fire and brimstone, spiteful god, and then all of a sudden he turns into this peace loving hippie god?

Christianity would be alot more credible if it hadn't tried to shoehorn the old Hebrew god with his baggage into a new and totally different religion.

Yeah that's pretty much how I feel. The old testament god for me is a complete piece of shit who i'd never want to associate myself with whilst the new testament follows Jesus, a damn good bloke. To me they're chalk and cheese.

[rezo]

Both actions are motivated by how a person gets themselves through the day, its just a question of what conditioned them to act.

This doesn't apply to what YAWA brought up, I don't think. He mentioned selfless as being without faith, without understanding, and anything else you mentioned. Talk of conditioning or what someone does to get by in the day has no bearing.

I'll bounce off of YAWA's line and say that

Everything is a perfect representation of itself, and an imperfect representation of something else.

What you choose to represent an ideal sort of perfect without any sort of qualifier might as well be an arbitrary decision. An infinite amount of possibilities have equal justification~