Calling all Christians!

[Saint of Killers]

Again, why is it that when you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar, after ample warning and specific explanations concerning the nature of the punishment, it's your parent's fault? It isn't. Pharoah is the reason the children died, not God. Just as it's the child's fault he got slapped for going in the cookie jar.

You'd think god, being omnipotent, would be able to accurately predict that the Pharoah would not relent. Meaning god went into it knowing full well he'd have to kill a bunch of babies. And don't go pulling the free will argument here. Either god is omniptent and should know what anyone will do at any given moment even if he doesn't control their actions, or he's not and the whole foundation of Christianity falls.

And why wouldn't he just send the Angel of Death after the Pharoah directly? Probably because then he couldn't indulge in his favorite pastime of killing children.

[Captain Vegetable]

Ouch! I'd be upset if I were one of those firstborn kids who was offed just 'cause the king didn't agree with some guy I'd never heard of. I don't think it would have been my fault .

How do you think Jesus felt?

Because in the end you're the one thats giving me the gold or providing the misfortune. You are responsible for giving me gold after I went left, and you are responsible for giving me grief if I went right. I am responsible for accepting the path that will lead to gold, or will lead to grief.

But you're wrong. You made the choice. You knew the outcome, and you still went that way. Ultimatly the parent is responcible for dishing out the slappings, but that makes them no more responcible for the fact that they actually had to do it. It is the child's fault that the parent need even act.

Which is why I said that the pharoah was possibly fine with what god did, but it is still a thing that god had done, and therefore god is responsible for doing it. The fact that it isn't even done to the pharoah directly makes it worse. Because the people that actually recieve the gold or grief aren't even given the option of choosing which one they will accept god giving them.

Not true. First of all, Pharoah was righteously pissed off that his son had died. Remember, Pharoah had a son who died at the Angel of Death's coming. It affected him directly, so it wasn't a flippant dismissal as you would have us believe. Pharoah knew that when he chose to persist in the Jews enslavement, his son was going to die.

Second of all, it was his fault that God acted in the way he did, not God's. But I've already explained this, so pardon me for refering you to a previous statement.

why?

Because what good is a tainted sacrifice? You need a pure sacrifice for atonement. That is why.

[Saint of Killers]

Because what good is a tainted sacrifice? You need a pure sacrifice for atonement. That is why.

You're missing the point. Why do you need a sacrifice at all? Why does killing a goat absolve you of your sins?

[Matt]

Salvation is the single most important issue in anyone's life. And about spirituality...you clearly haven't read my previous posts in this thread. I cherish my spirituality.

Yep, you're right - this is a long thread and I'm damned if I've the patience to read all of it! But I'm not trying to accuse you of being non-spiritual (see above Sidez Preacher).

But "salvation" shouldn't be the first thing on anybody's mind, should it? After all, it's something that's supposed to come naturally, and the fact that God'll let you in after the party's over isn't something you should worry about.

If I tell you that taking the left path in a fork in the road will lead you to untold riches for you and your loved ones, but that the right path will condemn them to torture and then death, and then you choose the right path, how is it my fault?

There's a term for that - it's called "extortion", especially when you're the one doing the torture/killing. You see this a lot in films about the mafia.

While I'm sure God ended up doing the right thing (somehow), it's really hard to defend him on this one. Hence faith, right?

[Captain Vegetable]

You'd think god, being omnipotent, would be able to accurately predict that the Pharoah would not relent. Meaning god went into it knowing full well he'd have to kill a bunch of babies.

You're right, He did. And in spite of knowing Pharoah wouldn't relent He still allowed for Pharoah to make his choice. He showed mercy on Pharoah by not figuring he was going to persist in his disobediance anyway, and so kill the first born sons without fair warning, which He very well could have done. Instead He told Pharoah the consequences of his actions, and gave him that chance to save the children, even though He knew it wasn't happening.

And don't go pulling the free will argument here.

I didn't.

And why wouldn't he just send the Angel of Death after the Pharoah directly?

Because the innocent must attone for the guilty, and by this the horror of sin is realized.

You're missing the point. Why do you need a sacrifice at all? Why does killing a goat absolve you of your sins?

Because such is the nature of sin. Sin buys death. "For the wages of sin is death."

Death, by the way, wasn't brought into this world by God, but by sin. God din't decided that death was the punishment for sin, but sin did.

Think of sin as it's own entity that enslaves people and coerses them into disobediance. It is mindful, intelligent, and desperatly wicked. It seeks to keep you from the truth and love of Jesus Christ, and only the light of Jesus Christ can cut through this blindness.

Sin is the reason we all must die.

EDIT: And goats don't absolve you of nothing.

There's a term for that - it's called "extortion", especially when you're the one doing the torture/killing. You see this a lot in films about the mafia.

Extortion is "do this, or else..." More commonly called "Black Mail." What I cited was two concequences, the realization of which was left up to the individual. They are two diseperate situations.

[Jester]

God in the OT says he desires mercy not sacrifice. He I'm sure felt the remorse of any parent that punishes their children, but had He not the Jews would not have been freed, the messiah would never have come, and the world would have no hope of salvation. He didn't spare the rod, to speak metaphorically.

[Matt]

You're missing the point. Why do you need a sacrifice at all? Why does killing a goat absolve you of your sins?

See, there you go!

I remember having the same conversation with my mom, years ago when trying to show her how to play Super Mario.

"Why does the mushroom make you big?"

"I don't know, it just does"

"Mushrooms don't do that."

"These are special mushrooms."

Probably embellished a little, but that's the gist of it. I undestood that when Mario ate the 'shroom, he became twice as tall and could smash bricks with his head. My mom, with no prior concept of Marioness, couldn't fathom it and found it suspicious.

Likewise, if I hadn't been taught that goats were necessary for God's forgiveness as a child, I'd find it a mighty strange idea.

[rezo]

Extortion is "do this, or else..."

Let the hebrews go, or else the first born sons of Egyptians will be killed.


edit: people ought to atone for their own mistakes. In any case, I don't see how killing more people atones for anything. Just more that has to be made up for =\

[Captain Vegetable]

But it's not the goats!!!!!

Let the hebrews go, or else the first born sons of Egyptians will be killed.

Choose to walk down the left path, or your family gets it.

I can do that too, but my initial motivation in the example of the crossraods was not steming from malevolence, nor did it cary any kind of air of extortion.

Motivation is the key factor, and though God wanted His people set free, He was not offering an ultimatum. The choice was left to Pharoah. He was forced into nothing.

[Saint of Killers]

Because the innocent must attone for the guilty, and by this the horror of sin is realized.

Or the horror of god.