Calling all Christians!

[Jester]

It's 2:30 am here too!
Either you're not in Germany or I'm in one of "those" Star trek The Next Gen episodes.

Saint Of killers your a comic fan right? Ever read the Squadron Supreme miniseries. Would it be better if God acted like a superfacist and killed all evil beings and offfered no chance at salvation? The act was harsh, but God didn't just jump right into it. There were several chances for Pharoh to relent.

[Saint of Killers]

Well we know that egyptians enjoy slaughtering the first born children of the jews to prevent Moses from doing the work he later had to do. It is appearantly a political aspect they understand.

I'm sure they'd also understand a 300 foot tall guy appearing in the middle of the palace saying, "Let my people go or I'll fuck you up beyond all recognition." Or maybe they'd understand the Pharoah suddenly exploding when he refused to release the Hebrews, and all subsequent Pharoahs suffering the same fate if they did the same. Or maybe the Hebrews could just disappear out of Egypt and appear in the promised land. Why set limits on your miracles unless you enjoy killing kids?

[Jester]

Or maybe since we're all hypothetical the Pharoh and thus all his loyal subjects would continue with there hard hearts and rebellion towards God until all of them were dead. Including the children who were innocently sacrificed as they starved to death at the absence of their now dead parents.

The Egyptians were an advanced society at the time and saw many of man's innovations, they did not believe in the God of the hebrews, and probably wouldn't have reacted differently to an 300 foot threat than the did to boils and locust and frogs and other such threats.

[Saint of Killers]

Yeah, but they sure would've reacted differently to dying themselves.

[Jester]

They wouldn't have reacted to dying, they'd be dead.

God didn't take the sacrifice lightly, He was going to kill All the firstborn children in Egypt. All the children of sinful men and women. The Jews were spared this masacare by sacrificing in obediance to God. What He did was akin to your killing everyone but by His mecy he accepted a sacrifice instead. The main difference in the death of the children at the hands of the egyptians and the death of the children at the time of God's passing was that the egyptians murdered and God simply reclaimed their spirits. The suffering was felt by the parents of the egyptian children not the lost children.

I edited my post after SoK agreed with me, He's only agreeing with the first statement.

[Saint of Killers]

Exactly.

[Jester]

I know alot of people believe God delighted in Genocide, look at how often it occured in the span of one book (the old testament). But compare that to the number of times nations of men have commited genocide in time spans far shorter than that of the Old testament. And I asure you that everytime God's wrath and Judgement were poured out it was againts His will. He states in the bible that it is His will that none shall perish but all should have everlasting life. He designed man for this. But through sin, the rebellion against god in one's heart, people abandone God's will for theirselves. Genocide is a harsh punishment and you'll not see any sane man argue that it isn't.

If God concented, and given up on man in those situations, allowing him to seek his own sinful ways, then there would be no hope for forgiveness or salvation in the world. Sin would have won and rampantly devoured the free will of men. Look at the effects of negative peer pressure and addiction for example. Without negative consequence to persuade them in life, they would have happily threw themselves into eternal death.

Had God instead destroyed all the wicked there would be no hope for forgiveness and salvation. Sin would have won again and been paid it's full wages of death and death eternally.

God did what He did in Egypt because He had to. The Pharoh was the son of the Pharoh who slaughtered the first born of Israel. Had he been exploded his Son may very well have taken his place. Had God destroyed the egyptians then vast generations of this world (many of whom repented and gave into obediance to God's will) would never had existed. I for one am greatful for my life inspite of it's hardships and thank God for the gift of it.

[Saint of Killers]

As I've stated numerous times god is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent. He knew beforehand that his creation would sin, and that he would die. He decided to put a bunch of arbitrary rules in place despite knowing that they would later "force" him to kill millions of innocents. He didn't have to do any of it, but he chose to. Therefore, if the Christian/Jewish god exists, he is clearly responsible for everything that has happened, and is one sick motherfucker.

[Jester]

You're making omnipotence to be predestination. The choice has always been before man to sin or not to sin. God did not create sin. God did not create man to sin. God knows the plans He has for man, plans to prosper and not to harm.

God gave the breath of life as a gift, unless you're a nihilist you should enjoy your own existence. He gave his Son's life for a chance at salvation for the entire world. Every good thing comes from God. He did not create mankind for suffering. He created mankind for fellowship with himself in paradise. He wants to bestow upon us gifts of unimaginable greatness. The only thing he wanted/wants from us in return was obediance. But we chose/choose disobediance. This seperated man from God. Not a single being had their hands tied behind their back by God and was forced to sin. The option for fellowship with God in paradise still exist in the form of salvation from Christ.

God is not responcible for the failings of mankind. It's as false to blame Him for man that squanders his life, as it is to blame the Mint for a man that squanders his money. People are and forever will be responsible for their own actions. It's not arguable, no one is a robot. God gives a person control of their own destiny. Sometimes the choices we make end in results that don't seem fair, but it is always a choice.

[Saint of Killers]

I don't think you understand omnipotence and omniscience. They mean you know and can do anything and everything. Therefore, god sure as hell would know all about how mankind would fail, about sin, etc. He created us. He created within us the ability to fail.

For Christ's sake, listen to yourself. "The only thing he wanted/wants from us in return was obediance." THEN WHY THE HELL DIDN'T HE MAKE US OBEDIENT? You can't be all knowing/all powerful, create something that fucks up, and then blame the creation. If I make something that is flawed, it is my fault. Why don't you hold a supposedly perfect being to the same standard?