The State of Capcom Today

[Anthony]

Likely the reason SF III didn't catch on quite as well. "Only TEN fighters? WTF!?!?" "What, no more ______? No way." I'm not saying "Be like Tekken & World Heroes, keep everyone"- but maybe another 4 characters from SSFIIT should've stayed for New Generation (In that case, I'd have picked Chun-Li, Blanka, Zangief, & E.Honda to join Ryu & Ken) to make the roster 14.

The Revenge system should be reworked so comebacks are not TOO easy. Instead of enabling you to totally decimate an opponent with the Ultra combo, it should give some more subtle perk like moderately increased damage or faster Super charging for a limited time. Have the Ultra combos stay in, but require 2 super levels to use them.

It wouldn't surprise me if there is another SFIV beyond Ultra. And if there is? Bring in Alex.

Again, there are thousands of ideas for making SFIV a better game. But what it did that SFIII would DEFINITELY not have even with an expanded cast, is got people playing the game the way 2d fighter games are supposed to be played.

I think the revenge system was fine for the idea of giving casual players more incentive to play. I would take away the 450 million frame throw break window before anything in that game.

[Changeling]

Cry all we want, Street fighter 4 did the most important and impressive thing I have EVER seen a fighting game do. It took fighting game fundamentals and made them accessible. Or at least 45 times more accessible than ever before. It made casual people actually, to some degree, play fighting games the way they were designed in a relatively short amount of time. It's really incredible, I was very impressed.

That being said, for someone who actually plays fighting games it is slow, plodding, and had no semblance of an entertaining offense. But the game wasn't meant for us. It wasn't designed for us to play and that's ok! Evo wouldn't be getting 130k views if it were.

Great post!

[Darmonde]

I think the revenge system was fine for the idea of giving casual players more incentive to play. I would take away the 450 million frame throw break window before anything in that game.

There are games with larger throw break windows, do you mean it hurts this game specifically? I didn't think it was especially long.

Throws still land a lot, and the advantage you get off of a throw is way too good. I never really thought about it, but I would probably like the game a lot more if you could quick rise from a throw. I'd be fine with having a shorter tech time without the hard knockdown.

[Anthony]

The problem with throws (which is to some degree hard to see, but easy to feel when you play), is you need REALLY loosey goosey frame traps to stop them. Unless your character has a move that beats low option selects. If I have to trap someone for like 6F, thats a HUGE window to try and catch. During my delay to catch their 3f crouch lk, they could actually mount their offense! Also of mediocre players don't do this, but if you get a feel for how late you can throw break, it is CRAZY hard to open someone up without a dedicated OS throw break beating move.

Luckily, most of the top tiers have this, and the mid-bottom tiers don't.

[Darmonde]

While I understand your end point, I don't understand your example. Do you mean manually timing counter hit setups is difficult because a cr short is only 3 frame startup?

I can't find data right now, but from what I remember most throws in sf4 are 2 frame startup and 3 frame tech window. Some characters have longer and shorter tech windows by a frame or 2. Can you give an example what game you're thinking of with a better tech window?

I don't like throws in SF4 but I can't really say why, so I'm actually curious.

[Anthony]

While I understand your end point, I don't understand your example. Do you mean manually timing counter hit setups is difficult because a cr short is only 3 frame startup?

I can't find data right now, but from what I remember most throws in sf4 are 2 frame startup and 3 frame tech window. Some characters have longer and shorter tech windows by a frame or 2. Can you give an example what game you're thinking of with a better tech window?

I don't like throws in SF4 but I can't really say why, so I'm actually curious.

"You can actually hold any direction on the joystick to Tech a Throw. The only thing that matters is that you hit Light Punch and Light Kick during the window a Throw can be Teched. Every Throw has the same window during which they can be Teched. Right when a Throw connects, you have 7 frames to perform your Counter Throw. "

from the wiki

7 fucking frames. Thats huge. This is if your throw connects AFTER the post guard stun throw invulnerability of likely 3-4 frames (post wakeup is even more frames!). So, you put me in guard stun, I come out, I can wait 10 fucking frames to hit my throw break? In sf (because of two button throws mind you), there is one counter to a throw-break, and that's to counter hit the option select low or standing throw break. (There are a few other options as well which make it more obnoxious, but lets leave it at this for now).

If I think you will throw me as soon as possible, I can break on frame 10. If you want to stop me from teching on frame 10, you have to put out a move that hits me on frame 10 - 13, during the startup of my option select throw break (hopefully, assuming I don't option select backdash or option select focus attack, 2 button throws are stupid). So, in order to do that (assuming you also use a 3f move which nets you low damage) you have to hit an attack at earliest on frame 7. That means I have from from 0-7 to input MY attack, and beat out yours. Or walk up throw you, or walk away, or backdash. After showing people I could tech every throw, they would go for that throw break and I would actually just walk up and throw THEM during their offense. There was no way to open a character up.

The only thing that helps with this is OS low beating moves. Those moves (dive kicks especially), either beat out the active frames of the move so I can't preemptive poke, or also give them +frames to keep going. It's because of this retarded window that the offense is anemic. If throws were in your face brutal, with like a 2 frame break window, shit would feel much faster.

[Darmonde]

You're right, I was reading the wrong numbers. I'd love to see a comparison between a bunch of games.. I could have sworn people hated sfxt because it was 7, and they reduced it to 5 to match sf4, but I'll have to look into it.

Despite the numbers though, I don't feel like that problem is the length of time. I'm trying not to get too theoretical. I'm going to try and find throw tech info from other games and compare.

[Anthony]

You're right, I was reading the wrong numbers. I'd love to see a comparison between a bunch of games.. I could have sworn people hated sfxt because it was 7, and they reduced it to 5 to match sf4, but I'll have to look into it.

Despite the numbers though, I don't feel like that problem is the length of time. I'm trying not to get too theoretical. I'm going to try and find throw tech info from other games and compare.

Theoretical isn't bad if you can see things through, and honestly evaluate the options. Many people are incapable of this so they make arguments about things without really understanding the variables. Why are there even throw break windows? I had something like a 95% throw break window against top players offline, most of those throws I wasn't even anticipating. It was part of my block routine. It shouldn't be like that. If you have post guard stun throw invul, you have given the defender a defensive option to beat the throw attempt.

[A Robot Bit Me]

Cry all we want, Street fighter 4 did the most important and impressive thing I have EVER seen a fighting game do. It took fighting game fundamentals and made them accessible.

I'm not going to deny SFIV was exactly what Capcom wanted, but it sure as hell wasn't what I wanted.

[Anthony]

I'm not going to deny SFIV was exactly what Capcom wanted, but it sure as hell wasn't what I wanted.

But maybe it's the reason I am getting Guilty Gear Xrd. And the reason that random people I know from other places want to throw down in street fighter after getting drunk and doing animal tranqs (not recommended). And the reason that I have fantastic stick options available that don't involve me spending 2 hours with a dremmel and an electrical engineering degree.

I mean, I'm not denying the game sucks for a competitive player, but as a fighting game player I think it did way more good than bad.