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Thread: The Biden Presidency

  1. Quote Originally Posted by Melf View Post
    Yes, but we're not occupying the country and directly controlling the government. We have bases everywhere, but we're not an occupying force like Iraq or Afghanistan.
    I just don't get why Iraq and (especially) Afghanistan don't have a solid government, or military. We were trying to create a democracy there, but the people obviously were in so much turmoil amongst themselves, that it never happened. The Soviets tried to establish communism in that area and it failed as well. There is no real solution to what is going on there, but on the same note, these people need to fight against oppression and they pretty much have no will to do so. It's going to get ugly, and the Taliban certainly aren't in a position to make a real government.

  2. Afghanistan is tribal. You cannot beat that. Loyalty is whatever it takes to make it through the day. When you have power there, most tow the line.

    The northern alliance fought the taliban prior to 911. Their leader was assassinated on 910 2001. Sun now runs it, but it's not what it once was.

    If you have to train an army for 20 years, they aren't going to win. Did anyone really think the ANA was going to step up and rule the land.

    Our own government said it was 90 days tops for them. Enough time for us to just slip away and memory hole that hole.

    I support leaving. No critique there.

    How it was done and the sheer brazen audacity of the lies and bullshit about the complete failure to prepare, plan or adapt is just too much.

    Planned for every contingency, right Joe?

    Just not the one that actually happened, I guess.

  3. I'd like the blank check that the Pentagon keeps getting every time they ask for more to be stopped.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    Afghanistan is tribal. You cannot beat that. Loyalty is whatever it takes to make it through the day. When you have power there, most tow the line.

    The northern alliance fought the taliban prior to 911. Their leader was assassinated on 910 2001. Sun now runs it, but it's not what it once was.

    If you have to train an army for 20 years, they aren't going to win. Did anyone really think the ANA was going to step up and rule the land.

    Our own government said it was 90 days tops for them. Enough time for us to just slip away and memory hole that hole.

    I support leaving. No critique there.

    How it was done and the sheer brazen audacity of the lies and bullshit about the complete failure to prepare, plan or adapt is just too much.

    Planned for every contingency, right Joe?

    Just not the one that actually happened, I guess.
    That kind of thinking brought about groups like ISIS, that destroyed beautiful religious artifacts that will never be replaced.



    I cannot put into words, how disgusted I was when I saw these horrible acts of vandalism to ancient art.
    Last edited by gamevet; 02 Sep 2021 at 12:20 AM.

  5. Talibs did that as well. It just is what it is.


  6. Quote Originally Posted by Melf View Post
    We didn't occupy South Korea like we did Afghanistan and Iraq, right? And we left Japan rather quickly. Those things happened because we don't know what to do with a country when we stay there too long. There's never an endgame. Hell, I LIVE in a country that was invaded over 100 years ago, and the U.S. still doesn't know what to do with it.
    Hard Facts™
    "Question the world man... I know the meaning of everything right now... it's like I can touch god." - bbobb the ggreatt

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
    Hard Facts™
    They really aren't. We have more troops is South Korea (28,000) then we've had in Afghanistan for years, double that in Japan (55,000). The Spanish American war was mutually started and involved the liberation of a nation (Cuba) and, honestly, the people of Puerto Rico don't know what to do with Puerto Rico either. I don't see Puerto Ricans taking to the streets looking for their independence (13.5% want it as of the last vote).

  8. Quote Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
    They really aren't. We have more troops is South Korea (28,000) then we've had in Afghanistan for years, double that in Japan (55,000).
    Again, we're not occupying those countries nor are we at war there.

    The Spanish American war was mutually started and involved the liberation of a nation (Cuba) and, honestly, the people of Puerto Rico don't know what to do with Puerto Rico either. I don't see Puerto Ricans taking to the streets looking for their independence (13.5% want it as of the last vote).
    The SAW was not mutually started. The U.S. looked around the playground and saw other countries playing with their toys (colonies). It wanted to play too! So, it beat up the weakest kid on the playground (Spain) and took its toys. Now, it doesn't want to play with them anymore but doesn't want to get rid of them either. We've had 4 referendums in the last 25 years, and while they weren't definitive, they at least showed that we wanted a change. 53% voted to change the status in the last referendum, and the U.S. keeps moving the goalposts. People don't take to the streets here because they know the U.S. isn't going to pay attention to the results. Congress won't shit and it won't get off the pot. It did take the time to decide that we have zero sovereignty, "belong to but are not part of the U.S.," and are under the complete control of the Territorial Clause of the Constitution. When Trump talked about trading or selling PR, he wasn't kidding. According to the Constitution, we're property, nothing more.

    Score one for "liberty" and "self-determination!"
    Last edited by Melf; 06 Sep 2021 at 01:52 PM.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Melf View Post
    Again, we're not occupying those countries nor are we at war there.
    I'll disagree with what you call "occupying" then. What were we getting out of the deal in Afghanistan exactly? Similar to Japan and South Korea we trained and equipped their military and tried to set up a Democratic form of government there. Clearly, Afghanistan isn't having it - much to the dismay of much of their population, I might add. We took way too long to get out, for sure, and had plenty of missteps along the way but that may be the most difficult nation to change. Perhaps we should mind our own business and let a country figure out for itself what it wants to be but I have trouble believing that begins and ends with the Taliban. Maybe we should've let Hitler alone, too, and not nation-build in Germany either - in which case the country would undoubtedly have been criticized for being the most powerful nation on earth and not doing anything. The United States doesn't "win" no matter what it does.

    Spain declared war on April 22. The U.S. on April 25th.

    You can debate the things that got us to that point all you want, but if that isn't mutual then I don't know what is.

    Puerto Rico hasn't had a strong independence movement for decades. You can talk about statehood, but that's not what I'm talking about. Furthermore, if the United States has an interest in adding a state, that's up to the United States first, and then Puerto Rico. I'm not saying I'm against it, but a territory having tepid support for becoming a state doesn't exactly help things either. Puerto Rico's "independence" votes have been a joke and support for becoming a state has been lukewarm at best. The people there need to get their shit together and decide what kind of "liberty" they want in the first place - which isn't to say that the United States doesn't seem particularly interested in "fixing" things like the Jones Act, etc...

    Puerto Rico needs a unifying movement towards whatever it is they wish to become - including independence. Were that to gain enough support the U.S. wouldn't do much to stop it but I don't think the conviction for that is anywhere near where it needs to be.

    Statehood is, like everything else in this fucking country, a political football that doesn't factor in who benefits from what exactly, The truth is that the entire U.S. government needs to be overhauled where political aspirations become less important and what the constituents voted for/need is of the highest priority. The government isn't of and for the people anymore and that shit rolls downhill. And it just seems to be getting worse - getting Trump and his tweets out of office hasn't changed much of anything.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
    I'll disagree with what you call "occupying" then. What were we getting out of the deal in Afghanistan exactly? Similar to Japan and South Korea we trained and equipped their military and tried to set up a Democratic form of government there. Clearly, Afghanistan isn't having it - much to the dismay of much of their population, I might add. We took way too long to get out, for sure, and had plenty of missteps along the way but that may be the most difficult nation to change. Perhaps we should mind our own business and let a country figure out for itself what it wants to be but I have trouble believing that begins and ends with the Taliban. Maybe we should've let Hitler alone, too, and not nation-build in Germany either - in which case the country would undoubtedly have been criticized for being the most powerful nation on earth and not doing anything. The United States doesn't "win" no matter what it does.
    Japan was a worldwide aggressor when we entered, and SK was at war with its neighbor. We didn't declare war and invade like we did in Afghanistan. A bigger factor is that they weren't overtly corrupt and apathetic to our presence. We're what, the third country to try and nation build in Afghanistan? They don't want it. We don't have to shove democracy down every country's throat whether they like it or not (especially when we have a half-dozen territories of our own that we completely ignore). Not invading isn't the alternative to doing nothing. We did nothing about Hitler, which was terrible, but invading countries willy nilly has netted us squat. What DID we get out of Afghanistan after 20 years? Nothing. It was a waste of lives and money.

    Spain declared war on April 22. The U.S. on April 25th.

    You can debate the things that got us to that point all you want, but if that isn't mutual then I don't know what is.
    A lot of yellow journalism swaying public opinion had much to do with that. I doubt Spain had much of a choice. The U.S. certainly gave zero fucks about the autonomy Spain had given PR before the war, completely ignoring it and implementing the same "Americanism" bullshit it did with the Native Americans. It failed miserably.

    Puerto Rico hasn't had a strong independence movement for decades. You can talk about statehood, but that's not what I'm talking about. Furthermore, if the United States has an interest in adding a state, that's up to the United States first, and then Puerto Rico. I'm not saying I'm against it, but a territory having tepid support for becoming a state doesn't exactly help things either. Puerto Rico's "independence" votes have been a joke and support for becoming a state has been lukewarm at best. The people there need to get their shit together and decide what kind of "liberty" they want in the first place - which isn't to say that the United States doesn't seem particularly interested in "fixing" things like the Jones Act, etc...
    Independence here is fractured beyond repair, but it doesn't get 10% in any plebiscite. The reason why statehood is so tepid here is because people are tired of voting and having Congress ignore it. Every 10 years or so, Congress changes its stance 180 degrees about whether the current status is viable, and they do ZERO to advance the status issue (much like it ignores D.C. and The V.I.). People here know that their vote means nothing in these referendums because Congress won't take up the issue. I've been hearing that there's "no environment for status discussions" in Congress for literally three decades now. They keep us in a political limbo and people are tired.

    Puerto Rico needs a unifying movement towards whatever it is they wish to become - including independence. Were that to gain enough support the U.S. wouldn't do much to stop it but I don't think the conviction for that is anywhere near where it needs to be.
    Unfortunately, that's not going to happen as long as Congress ignores the issue. I sincerely doubt that McConnell wants to add a state with 3.5 million Spanish-speaking brown people that lean Democratic, and the U.S. isn't going to give up a colony that makes more money than it costs.

    Statehood is, like everything else in this fucking country, a political football that doesn't factor in who benefits from what exactly, The truth is that the entire U.S. government needs to be overhauled where political aspirations become less important and what the constituents voted for/need is of the highest priority. The government isn't of and for the people anymore and that shit rolls downhill. And it just seems to be getting worse - getting Trump and his tweets out of office hasn't changed much of anything.
    Agreed 100%. I am actually happy I live here, with the hurricanes, earthquakes, and bad economy than in the shitshow many states have become thanks to politics. It's insane.

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