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Thread: The Biden Presidency

  1. Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    Again, no one is asking you to prove anything. But opinions can, in fact, be argued, elaborated on, and extrapolated from. This is, in fact, the basis of nearly all human conversation, and I'm not sure why you are acting like an alien who just got to earth whenever you get called out...
    "Called out" about what? An opinion? This is truly, truly ridiculous. Unless there's a painfully in depth study somewhere about the short and long term effects of Trump/Russia on voters, on specific segments of voters, etc... then all I can offer about this is an opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    So are you just arguing that voters are kind of stupid and don't really know what Russiagate was and so they think it was about election fraud? I get that the impact of something might be different than reality of it, but if that's your argument then it becomes a pretty different conversation about who's to blame...

    And if not, then for the love of God say what you're trying to say instead of huffing about how "It's so obvious that if I have to explain it then... I... won't."
    YOUR conversation is about "blame". My conversation has been about voter doubts and the root beginnings of that (Trump/Russia) and it's painfully obvious that I do, in fact, have to explain this over and over and over again. The entire genesis of this was your statement that almost half of voters don't trust elections anymore because of the insurrection and the events leading up to it. My argument, or opinion, is that it really began well before that with Trump/Russia and the effects of that on voters of both parties but more specifically conservatives/right.

  2. Quote Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
    I do, in fact, have to explain this over and over and over again.
    But you haven't explained once exactly how or why you think anyone is connecting Russiagate to election integrity. Can you actually try writing your whole thought out instead of these impenetrably broad generalizations?

    I can have the opinion that Laffy Taffy causes racial animus, but if I say that, you'd probably expect that I could elaborate on why, right? The connection between those things isn't intuitive. For some reason you seem offended at someone asking you why. It isn't about being asked to "prove" it, it's just about being able to explain what your thinking is...


    The entire genesis of this was your statement that almost half of voters don't trust elections anymore because of the insurrection and the events leading up to it.
    Not quite., My argument is that these voters don't trust elections because the one person they trust more than anyone else spent an entire year telling them not to.

    YOUR conversation is about "blame".
    Look, if you want to talk about the root of something, that is assigning a causal relationship, i.e. blame, but please stop telling me all the things you don't mean and just say what you do, clearly and completely, instead of making me play 20 questions and getting pissy about it.

    My argument, or opinion, is that it really began well before that with Trump/Russia and the effects of that on voters of both parties but more specifically conservatives/right.
    So you're saying that conservative voters specifically believe that Russian interference is responsible for 2016 election? That doesn't really track...

    You keep phrasing things really broadly like this and when I ask you to state your argument in a clearer or more specific way, you just act indignant and refuse.
    Last edited by Frogacuda; 21 Oct 2021 at 10:35 AM.

  3. Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    But you haven't explained once exactly how or why you think anyone is connecting Russiagate to election integrity. Can you actually try writing your whole thought out instead of these impenetrably broad generalizations?
    https://theconversation.com/fact-che...lection-146711

    "Currently, there is no evidence that these more advanced methods are being used in the United States. However, there is evidence that the Russians have become masters in the art of creating bots dedicated to spreading false information.

    In this way, Russian interference continues to fuel tensions among Americans, adding uncertainty and undermining public confidence in the democratic electoral process."

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    Not quite., My argument is that these voters don't trust elections because the one person they trust more than anyone else spent an entire year telling them not to.
    Have I disputed this? I'm only augmenting on your notion that voters in the U.S. have doubts in the electoral process and that it's genesis was much earlier than the above. The two can mutually coexist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    So you're saying that conservative voters specifically believe that Russian interference is responsible for 2016 election? That doesn't really track...

    You keep phrasing things really broadly like this and when I ask you to state your argument in a clearer or more specific way, you just act indignant and refuse.
    I haven't said that at all. Please show where I did?

    I'm saying that quite a few conservative voters view "Russiagate" as a hoax and actually believe that Hillary (and the Biden Group®) are the ones who are really in cahoots with Russia - via the dossier, election interference, corruption through gifts and "art" purchases, etc... that make them doubt the electoral process. Listen, I don't like Trump either, but there's certainly a marked difference in mass media coverage of this sitting President than there was of the last one - Russiagate cast serious doubts for a period of nearly two years on a sitting President and ended up being a colossal dud. If you think that that sits well with the Right/Far Right and doesn't augment doubt in their government (surveilling a President-elect and sitting President is fucking unheard of) and its elections then I can't lead you any further to the water to drink. Did Trump feed on this shit and make those matters, and doubts, ten times worse? No doubt about it - but that doesn't dismiss its origins. Again, our two viewpoints can peacefully exist together so I'm not sure what the fuss is all about.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
    https://theconversation.com/fact-che...lection-146711

    "Currently, there is no evidence that these more advanced methods are being used in the United States. However, there is evidence that the Russians have become masters in the art of creating bots dedicated to spreading false information.

    In this way, Russian interference continues to fuel tensions among Americans, adding uncertainty and undermining public confidence in the democratic electoral process."
    This seems like a broad interpretation of the phrase "electoral process" to include things like "How voters engage on social media," and if you want to say that, fine, but I still think it's pretty distant from the issue of election integrity and the kind of procedural and structural guard rails that ensure it.

    I haven't said that at all. Please show where I did?
    You didn't but you were making me play 20 questions trying to figure out what you were getting at.

    I'm saying that quite a few conservative voters view "Russiagate" as a hoax and actually believe that Hillary (and the Biden Group®) are the ones who are really in cahoots with Russia - via the dossier, election interference, corruption through gifts and "art" purchases, etc... that make them doubt the electoral process.
    So you've kind of jumped from what you referred to as "Russiagate," to a cloud of right wing conspiracy stuff, some of which (like the Hunter art scandals) date to AFTER Trump's attacks on our elections, and much of which is difficult to separate from the same "make it all up" QAnon conspiracy hole as the election stuff.

    I'm not sure how you think the word "Russiagate" relates to any of this or how anyone reading your post would figure that out.

    Listen, I don't like Trump either, but there's certainly a marked difference in mass media coverage of this sitting President than there was of the last one - Russiagate cast serious doubts for a period of nearly two years on a sitting President and ended up being a colossal dud.
    Okay, so here we agree, but it's a point I already acknowledged; Russiagate's accusations and origins raise legit questions about both the media and FBI, and is absolutely responsible for some erosion of trust in those institutions, but I wouldn't want to lump that in with the election conspiracies except perhaps in the very broad sense that people feel like they have a license to make shit up now that they don't believe CNN.


    (surveilling a President-elect and sitting President is fucking unheard of)
    To my knowledge they surveilled a staffer of his, Carter Page, under dodgy pretenses, which is not good, but also not the same as either of the things you just said.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    This seems like a broad interpretation of the phrase "electoral process" to include things like "How voters engage on social media," and if you want to say that, fine, but I still think it's pretty distant from the issue of election integrity and the kind of procedural and structural guard rails that ensure it.
    This is where the disconnect is, I'm taking this from the point of view of the ~%50% that don't trust the process for whatever reason and not the actual process


    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    So you've kind of jumped from what you referred to as "Russiagate," to a cloud of right wing conspiracy stuff, some of which (like the Hunter art scandals) date to AFTER Trump's attacks on our elections, and much of which is difficult to separate from the same "make it all up" QAnon conspiracy hole as the election stuff.

    I'm not sure how you think the word "Russiagate" relates to any of this or how anyone reading your post would figure that out.
    I was laying out a bunch of examples pre and post "Russiagate" that contribute to the doubt(s) in the minds of certain voters. I'm not espousing any of these positions or determining the truthfulness.



    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    To my knowledge they surveilled a staffer of his, Carter Page, under dodgy pretenses, which is not good, but also not the same as either of the things you just said.
    Should've said "Trump Campaign", however, some of the leaks were mighty suspicious no matter which side of the fence you're on - whether that was from members of his team or other means is up for debate.

  6. People still believe this russiagate nonsense? That was promoted to take attention away from the DNC screwing Bernie Sanders and installing queen Hillary.

    Way I remember it, Trump harped about the election will be stolen pre election and the Democrats ran that shit for 4 years after. Literally could not cope with Hillary losing.

    What's to debate on Biden?

    Apart from the child tax credit, what has been done?

    Foreign policy: a mess. Botched Afghanistan withdrawal, border worse all around, losing allies, china getting worse. Banned russian ammo sales here to sanction russia, lol.

    Domestic: can't control own party enough to pass signature bills, Broken promises (2k stimulus checks, free college), won't forgive student loans beyond a select few, won't legalize weed, two very simple wins he has the power to do. Won't even recognize inflation nor do anything about it.

    Man ran on the "I'm the guy to get shit done in Washington." Really?

    Man's a completely feckless leader who can't even seem to get Democrats to work together.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    People still believe this russiagate nonsense? That was promoted to take attention away from the DNC screwing Bernie Sanders and installing queen Hillary.
    Do I believe Trump was intimately involved in it? No, and I never did.

    Do I believe Russia was responsible for the leaking of Podesta's emails to WikiLeaks? Of course, is this really even controversial?

    I think the impact of Russia's interference was massively overstated by the Clinton campaign and those wishing to make excuses for them, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    Way I remember it, Trump harped about the election will be stolen pre election and the Democrats ran that shit for 4 years after. Literally could not cope with Hillary losing.
    Or, to rephrase, the democrats made excuses for their loss, and Trump literally tried to tear down democracy. Yes, both are bad, but bitch please.


    Apart from the child tax credit, what has been done?
    Par for the course in the last 15 years or so of American politics. Our system was not designed for the hyperpartisan era and gridlock is the status quo. It's not like Trump managed to pass any of his marquee legislation other than a tax cut for the rich that backfired.

    Foreign policy: a mess. Botched Afghanistan withdrawal, border worse all around, losing allies, china getting worse. Banned russian ammo sales here to sanction russia, lol.
    Afghanistan was always gonna be ugly and it was the right thing to do. I have zero respect for the generals who lied about the war for twenty years trying to make it sound like we needed to stay just a little longer. Fuck off with that.

    You also probably don't want to bring up losing allies after the previous administration...

    China has been steady getting worse. Trump bend over backwards to tickle Xi's balls in the beginning of the pandemic despite being told by advisers China wasn't being on the level. Biden is better if only slightly.

    Domestic: can't control own party enough to pass signature bills, Broken promises (2k stimulus checks, free college), won't forgive student loans beyond a select few, won't legalize weed, two very simple wins he has the power to do.
    Gotta hold more than just Biden accountable there. He has an incredibly narrow and fragile coalition. Stop voting obstructionists into office and this suddenly changes, right?

    Won't even recognize inflation nor do anything about it.
    Don't panic over inflation, there are a couple outlier industries dragging it up higher than the real world impacts are likely to be.

    Man's a completely feckless leader who can't even seem to get Democrats to work together.
    Were you this hard on the guy who couldn't even keep a cabinet together?

    I mean truly the best thing I can say about Trump is that the complete lack of executive function that characterized his administration kept his worst impulses at bay. Half the people who ever worked for him wrote tell all books about how they were fucking with him and keeping from doing anything. Truly the weakest strongman in history.
    Last edited by Frogacuda; 22 Oct 2021 at 12:14 AM.

  8. But look, my point here is not really to defend Biden but to say that we need to stop obsessing over the presidency because the biggest problems we have right now are in the hands of a legislative branch that is so dysfunctional that it feels hopeless.

    The presidency is not supposed to be very strong. So either you have a "weak" president or one that attempts to expand the presidency beyond it's intended scope of power and I think the latter is the far worse outcome.

    Sent from my LE2127 using Tapatalk

  9. Why is anyone surprised that the Democrats can't govern? After they win an election, they immediately start finding ways to lose the next one. They always do the same shit.

    What I really I wonder about is why no one comments or seems concerned that the entire Republican party has ZERO interest in governing at all. It literally has nothing new in its platform to offer (in 2020 it just copy/pasted the one from 2016), and its entire reason for being right now is to kiss Orange Julius's ass and "own the libs." The party stands for nothing and is playing no role in governing at all.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Melf View Post
    Why is anyone surprised that the Democrats can't govern? After they win an election, they immediately start finding ways to lose the next one. They always do the same shit.
    This is the truth.
    6-6-98 - 6-6-18 Happy 20th Anniversary TNL

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