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Thread: The Biden Presidency

  1. Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    Yeah Rittenhouse isn't going to get convicted. I think he's a garbage person and responsible for those deaths, but we don't really have laws for the kind of shit he did.
    He's going to face some charges but what makes this worse is the media who blew this up so much should face some shit also. There's going to be more fucking stupid god damn riots because a racist white kid who shots other white people got away with being racist by shooting other white people.
    6-6-98 - 6-6-18 Happy 20th Anniversary TNL

  2. Quote Originally Posted by BonusKun View Post
    Why not? I mean the shitstorm he's already done so far can't any worse.


    Can it?

    I mean this might sound bad but I kinda want to see how bad shit can really get before it gets better.
    It's not even that simple, man. Like one of the big drivers of inflation right now is food costs, and the reason for that is record droughts due to climate change.

    So you, as a guy who voted for the climate change denier, see the fact that every single Republican is opposing the proposed legislation that might ease or slow this. Clearly. But you still cop this attitude of "Fix it, Daddy Biden."

    No one can fix shit if you don't let them fucking govern. You see Republicans now being blackballed from the party for supporting the "bipartisan" house infrastructure bill that was largely identical to the one Trump tried and failed to pass, simply on the grounds of not wanting to give Biden a "win." When you make *everything* about the party and the president, you end up with a slow suicide of government.

    We have to grow up and learn to have a more sophisticated understanding of the issues themselves, and we need to hold our lawmakers to account on *issues* not allegiances.

  3. Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda;
    We have to grow up and learn to have a more sophisticated understanding of the issues themselves, and we need to hold our lawmakers to account on *issues* not allegiances.
    I agree with your points but this one. I don't see the world full of sunshine and rainbows because while people I think can be good at their cores, there is way too much temptation out there that makes people do and react negatively all the time. I think you're a good guy frog but you have to accept that some people are beyond salvation.
    6-6-98 - 6-6-18 Happy 20th Anniversary TNL

  4. The worst drought on record in the U.S. was the dust bowl in the 30's and in China in the 1800's - they estimate it didn't rain for three years and killed 10 million people.

    Climate change has to be tackled by the entire world, in unison, together insieme. And, unfortunately, given our current state of economics, the poor are going to suffer the most from going green because everything is going to cost more. If India and China (who is still BUILDING coal plants) aren't on board the same way we are then there's not even a point to moving forward because all we are going to do is weaken ourselves in the process while still relying on foreign nations for oil and having a negligible impact overall on emissions.

    I don't see the planet unifying towards this until it's probably too late to stop major implications across the globe.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
    Climate change has to be tackled by the entire world, in unison, together insieme.
    Which is a poor excuse to obstruct a major world power from doing absolutely anything. We have to play our part in this, we can't simply wait for others to lead the way.

    Aside from which, it's not entirely true in the sense that knowledge gains can be shared. Some of going green is a matter of infrastructure, sure, but R&D into new or refined tech can benefit the whole world.

    And, unfortunately, given our current state of economics, the poor are going to suffer the most from going green because everything is going to cost more.
    The poor are going to suffer more from climate change... Going green has costs but it also creates new jobs and opportunities. Few think it would be an actual drag on the economy. It might be shitty for coal miners, sure, but that's like trying to outlaw Netflix to save Blockbuster jobs.


    If India and China (who is still BUILDING coal plants) aren't on board the same way we are then there's not even a point to moving forward because all we are going to do is weaken ourselves in the process while still relying on foreign nations for oil and having a negligible impact overall on emissions.
    Madness. First, it isn't black and white, out impact is our impact. And this is also circular reasoning. Many other nations are making moves to go green. If they can do their part, so can we.

    To say nothing of the leadership role we ought to be playing in the world.

    Sent from my LE2127 using Tapatalk

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    Which is a poor excuse to obstruct a major world power from doing absolutely anything. We have to play our part in this, we can't simply wait for others to lead the way.

    Aside from which, it's not entirely true in the sense that knowledge gains can be shared. Some of going green is a matter of infrastructure, sure, but R&D into new or refined tech can benefit the whole world.
    So, the entire world shouldn't tackle climate change? Because this in response to that and makes a whole bunch of arguments refuting... nothing that I've said. As usual.



    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    The poor are going to suffer more from climate change... Going green has costs but it also creates new jobs and opportunities. Few think it would be an actual drag on the economy. It might be shitty for coal miners, sure, but that's like trying to outlaw Netflix to save Blockbuster jobs.
    Really? I'd like to see that data. The poor people that heat their houses with oil, put gas in their cars, can't afford solar power and electrical vehicles, etc... "It might be shitty for coal miners" is about as dumb a take on this as I've seen. Sounds Biden-esque. The impact of what Biden and company are doing makes little sense (closing pipelines) because our economy is simply buying oil that's being produced someplace else. That really makes no sense. Our emissions have steadily declined since 2005 - is it enough? No. Hell no. But, it's not like we're burying our head in the sand and it's actually beggining to make sense for the consumer, too, which will eventually really get the ball rolling. In the mean time, if fuel costs more then everything costs more and that hammers the poor. Until groceries are delivered in electric vehicles, it's not likely to change.



    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    Madness. First, it isn't black and white, out impact is our impact. And this is also circular reasoning. Many other nations are making moves to go green. If they can do their part, so can we.

    To say nothing of the leadership role we ought to be playing in the world.
    Most of those nations "making moves" rely on US TO PROTECT THEM. If we get lapped by China because they're using cheap(er) energy to produce weapons, islands, tech, etc... while we're "going green" and can't produce a fucking thing then we might be leading in green energy but we'll not be the world leader for very long. If the prospect of China being much more powerful than the U.S. doesn't concern you then I don't know what to tell you.

    China produces DOUBLE the CO2 that we do. Europe produces more than we do. Per Capita, we're the gluttons, but let's remember that billions of Chinese are in perpetual poverty/slavery so those numbers are very skewed.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
    So, the entire world shouldn't tackle climate change? Because this in response to that and makes a whole bunch of arguments refuting... nothing that I've said. As usual.
    Haha, stop it, that isn't what you said.

    You weren't simply arguing that other countries are responsible for their part, you were arguing that it's pointless for us to change until after they do, like some kind of capitalist game of chicken.

    The argument isn't about whether we should, or anyone else should, it's about whether we should lead or follow and I think we should lead.


    Really? I'd like to see that data. The poor people that heat their houses with oil, put gas in their cars, can't afford solar power and electrical vehicles, etc...
    You're acting as if I'm proposing sweeping overnight bans or something. Obviously the goal is going to be to subsidize infrastructure and research and phase out old technology gradually.

    You do that in urban areas first through large infrastructure investments and regulation. Rural America isn't the real problem and obviously this stuff gets done much later when it's much cheaper. You don't suddenly tell people in central Pennsylvania they have to go solar.

    You're arguing particulars here that aren't based on any real or proposed legislation, it's a total strawman.

    If we get lapped by China because they're using cheap(er) energy to produce weapons, islands, tech, etc... while we're "going green" and can't produce a fucking thing then we might be leading in green energy but we'll not be the world leader for very long.
    China is getting their balls slapped right now with spiking prices and rolling blackouts because of their reliance on fossil fuels and now it's driving inflation at home too. This shit doesn't HELP our position in the global marketplace it's a huge liability.

    Going green means energy independence. As someone who tries to argue for economic nationalism, it's staggering to see how you think we should be relying on imports for basic life needs like energy to the extent that we do.

    If you're worried about China, that is one of the best reasons to go green so we don't have to compete with China for fossil fuels.
    Last edited by Frogacuda; 15 Nov 2021 at 04:16 PM.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    Haha, stop it, that isn't what you said.

    You weren't simply arguing that other countries are responsible for their part, you were arguing that it's pointless for us to change until after they do, like some kind of capitalist game of chicken.

    The argument isn't about whether we should, or anyone else should, it's about whether we should lead or follow and I think we should lead.
    I didn't make that argument at all and I never said we shouldn't lead. Please point to where I did. This is why I can't have conversations with you. Besides, no country is looking to America for "leadership" (I mean, come on) in going green and most aren't living up to whatever they promised to do in the Paris accords anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    You're acting as if I'm proposing sweeping overnight bans or something. Obviously the goal is going to be to subsidize infrastructure and research and phase out old technology gradually.

    You do that in urban areas first through large infrastructure investments and regulation. Rural America isn't the real problem and obviously this stuff gets done much later when it's much cheaper. You don't suddenly tell people in central Pennsylvania they have to go solar.

    You're arguing particulars here that aren't based on any real or proposed legislation, it's a total strawman.
    Hey, you said not going green makes the poor suffer even more. I said prove it. You can't and all this other horseshit above has little or nothing to do with what I said. Green energy costs A LOT. I'm IN THE BUSINESS. It's NOT CHEAP. Nobody is putting solar panels or great insulation on new construction affordable housing because, if they did, the poor/lower middle class COULDN'T AFFORD it anymore.

    (Edit) I'm going to edit this to add that, yes, it needs to be gradual to ease the pain on the lower/lower middle class but the proponents of this are all saying that it all needs to happen NOW. That cannot happen and the poor/lower middle class not suffering - the two cannot, as of this moment, not impact each other significantly. Equally, I would add that I did say that as the technology evolves and makes more sense to consumers the more rapidly it'll happen.



    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    China is getting their balls slapped right now with spiking prices and rolling blackouts because of their reliance on fossil fuels and now it's driving inflation at home too. This shit doesn't HELP our position in the global marketplace it's a huge liability.

    Going green means energy independence. As someone who tries to argue for economic nationalism, it's staggering to see how you think we should be relying on imports for basic life needs like energy to the extent that we do.

    If you're worried about China, that is one of the best reasons to go green so we don't have to compete with China for fossil fuels.
    Who the fuck said we should rely on imports? Me? Where? I swear you just make shit up and argue about it. I'm the last guy who thinks we should rely on any other country for anything if we don't have to. I think it's a catastrophe that we went from being energy independent to whining about OPEC in less than a year.

    China is the largest global threat to the United States and it's allies - particularly in the "leadership" lingo that you're spewing above. If you can't see that then we really have nothing to discuss. I mean, they've specifically stated it as their goal to supplant the U.S. as the world's largest super power and just watch Taiwan get invaded after the Olympics. Talk to Taiwanese and see if they aren't shitting in their pants right now. They are and rightly so.
    Last edited by haohmaru; 15 Nov 2021 at 07:47 PM.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
    I didn't make that argument at all
    Except you straight up did. You said "If India and China (who is still BUILDING coal plants) aren't on board the same way we are then there's not even a point to moving forward."

    Which is NOT the same as simply saying other countries should do their part, you're saying there's no point in anyone else doing anything until they do, and saying we all have to do it at the same time, and that argument just doesn't hold water.

    Quote Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
    Who the fuck said we should rely on imports? Me? Where?
    You don't have to, the reality is we import fossil fuels, and even if we didn't we have to compete for them with international buyers, since all of that is run by private industry, so the net result is much the same. When China bids up the price of natural gas, we pay more for heat, which is exactly what's happening right now and one of the major contributors to the inflation we're seeing right now.

    but the proponents of this are all saying that it all needs to happen NOW.
    I am not saying that. I am saying we need to start now, but we should begin with the cities, which are responsible for the vast majority of our carbon footprint. And in cities, poor people don't own property, they use public transit, it's a very different sort of picture from the kind of rural/suburban problems you're talking about which are very much behind that.

    I mean there are parts of the country that don't have broadband internet yet, it's unreasonable to expect all of them to completely phase out heating oil or propane overnight, but we should have a plan.

    Who the fuck said we should rely on imports? Me? Where? I swear you just make shit up and argue about it.
    You're suggesting we continue to rely on fossil fuels, which we do indeed import, but even if we did not, since these are all owned by private industry we have to bid against the international market even if we WERE able to depend on domestic supply.

    If China bids up the price of natural gas, then guess what? We're paying that price for natural gas, even our own. In fact, that's exactly what's happening right now, and it's a major contributor to our inflation.

    China is the largest global threat to the United States and it's allies - particularly in the "leadership" lingo that you're spewing above. If you can't see that then we really have nothing to discuss. I mean, they've specifically stated it as their goal to supplant the U.S. as the world's largest super power and just watch Taiwan get invaded after the Olympics. Talk to Taiwanese and see if they aren't shitting in their pants right now. They are and rightly so.
    I agree, but I don't think having renewable green energy is a threat to that...
    Last edited by Frogacuda; 15 Nov 2021 at 11:51 PM.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    Except you straight up did. You said "If India and China (who is still BUILDING coal plants) aren't on board the same way we are then there's not even a point to moving forward."

    Which is NOT the same as simply saying other countries should do their part, you're saying there's no point in anyone else doing anything until they do, and saying we all have to do it at the same time, and that argument just doesn't hold water.
    NO. I said the entire world has to be on board for it to work, which it does. I never said that there's "no point in anyone else doing anything" and clearly we, and others, are. You're making this awfully simplistic, and, honestly, dumb. Of course I'm not saying that we should all be at the starting line waiting for the gun to go off to start the green race. I'm saying that unless everyone is on board it won't have the impact that it needs to - particularly if the world's two largest producers of CO2 aren't on board. By "moving forward" I mean with radical changes to our energy policy - we're clearly moving forward as it is (solar, electric cars, energy star/higher building standards, etc...). If we do THAT then we compromise our competitiveness if they aren't on board with it and that hurts our ability to produce even further.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    You don't have to, the reality is we import fossil fuels, and even if we didn't we have to compete for them with international buyers, since all of that is run by private industry, so the net result is much the same. When China bids up the price of natural gas, we pay more for heat, which is exactly what's happening right now and one of the major contributors to the inflation we're seeing right now.
    The reality is we were NET EXPORTING energy in 2019 and 2020 and, under Biden, no longer are.



    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    I am not saying that. I am saying we need to start now, but we should begin with the cities, which are responsible for the vast majority of our carbon footprint. And in cities, poor people don't own property, they use public transit, it's a very different sort of picture from the kind of rural/suburban problems you're talking about which are very much behind that.
    Meh, the mass transportation in most cities isn't as functional as it needs to be. Jacksonville, the area in which I live, has 1+ million people and the mass transportation is a joke. People need cars - even in the city. And, you KNOW, certain factions are going to label it as racist because of the populations of cities tends to be more diverse than the suburbs. I don't disagree that the impacts are more prevalent there but the political landscape makes it very precarious.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    IYou're suggesting we continue to rely on fossil fuels, which we do indeed import, but even if we did not, since these are all owned by private industry we have to bid against the international market even if we WERE able to depend on domestic supply.

    If China bids up the price of natural gas, then guess what? We're paying that price for natural gas, even our own. In fact, that's exactly what's happening right now, and it's a major contributor to our inflation. .
    As of right now, fossil fuel(s) are still significantly less expensive than most green options and if your competition can, and does, use cheaper energy than you do then they have a significant advantage in nearly every industry. That's just a fact. If we weren't shutting down pipelines, leases, etc... we'd be doing ourselves a favor > Production = < Prices.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frogacuda View Post
    II agree, but I don't think having renewable green energy is a threat to that...
    It is until it is on cost parity with fossil fuels and/or other countries move on from non green energy. China has a huge advantage using cheaper energy than we do, not giving a shit about coal, etc...
    Last edited by haohmaru; 16 Nov 2021 at 07:20 AM.

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