EThuggX: Why not tell me how you really feel? :-)
ImRich66: about?
EThuggX: Me....
ImRich66: I've already told you
ImRich66: I despise you
ImRich66: I've never believed in the validity of "wrong opinions" until I've read yours
EThuggX: Awww shucks, you're not so bad yourself. Tell me more...
ImRich66: ...?
ImRich66: your devoid of sympathy, and for it I despise you
ImRich66: how can you feel people deserve death for being born with a defect
EThuggX: I'm a vegan only out of compassion for animals, what exactly is your definition of 'sympathy'?
ImRich66: it's not their fault
EThuggX: That gives you no right to play god and 'fix' them.
ImRich66: your not playing god
ImRich66: your using god's resources to fix them
EThuggX: Yes, you are.
EThuggX: Gods resourse is fuck and have kids
ImRich66: if it was against god's will, the ability to heal would be nonexistant
ImRich66: did Jesus not heal people?
EThuggX: If you can't, you aren't suppose to.
ImRich66: all though I know you don't beleive in it
EThuggX: It's against my will
ImRich66: what is?
EThuggX: I and every real human is devalued when a cheap imitation can be created
ImRich66: but it's not an imitation
EThuggX: its not real
ImRich66: and they are "real"
ImRich66: they have the same structure as everyone else
EThuggX: they are real in that they exist and are alive only, they aren't human.
ImRich66: and what seperates people, IMO, is the mind
ImRich66: and they wouldn't have the same mind
ImRich66: what makes them not human?
EThuggX: they were created by science, not nature
ImRich66: they were created through natural means, what is unnatural? who says sex is the natural way?
EThuggX: nature
ImRich66: nature says sex is natural
EThuggX: I'm a tree hugger... you won't alter my view
ImRich66: ?
ImRich66: I'm not tryign to alter your view
ImRich66: simply providing my view
ImRich66: the same applies to you, your not gonig to alter my view
EThuggX: just say its 'wrong' and I'm all thats wrong with the world...
ImRich66: eh?
ImRich66: hell you talkin about
EThuggX: You said my opinions are wrong, and I represent yadda yadda
ImRich66: I do feel you have wrong opinions, because I feel only "real" humans have sympathy
ImRich66: and all "real" humans have sympathy
ImRich66: thus putting you in the same class as a clone
EThuggX: I have sympathy, but my sense of right and wrong overrides it.
ImRich66: but what makes cloning wrong, provided it's natural, IMO
ImRich66: and as I've already said, I don't know if I support cloning or not
EThuggX: That's the problem. In no way do I find it natural.
ImRich66: that's because you feel God's means of reproduction are through sex, but you have nothing to back that up besides your own feeling
EThuggX: Nature, not God... and so?
EThuggX: My own feeling is all I need
ImRich66: well that coudl quite possibly make your opinion wrong
ImRich66: because for all you know, Nature's means of reproduction are through cloning
EThuggX: How could that be? It occurs naturally nowhere
ImRich66: but it is natural, it just involves a third party and extra equipment, which is made by natural elements
EThuggX: Concreate is made up of natural elements, but when combined by human hands, it's no longer natural
EThuggX: If it requires a 3rd party, it cannot be naturtal
ImRich66: but humans are natural, as is the concrete's elements
ImRich66: so your saying if natural things combine, it's no longer natural
EThuggX: Correct.
ImRich66: then that devoids everything
EThuggX: If it's not a natural occurance
ImRich66: sperm + egg = 2 natural substances combining
EThuggX: Animals have sex, if there were no humans, this would be true even
EThuggX: Anything that requires human intervention is not natural
ImRich66: do you think asexual animals are not natural?
ImRich66: because they are basically clones
EThuggX: They are freaks.... mutants
ImRich66: because they reproduce differently?
EThuggX: I'm cvonfused... asexual animals that are all asexual, or when they aren't normally?
ImRich66: asexual animals that are naturally asexual..
ImRich66: btw, I'm posting just a segment of this convo and nothing else, hope you don't mind
ImRich66: to bring up my point of asexual reproduction
EThuggX: I'd have to think about it... but normally, I wouldn't think animals are... plants I know... what animals?
ImRich66: I don't think any animals are, but monera
ImRich66: and single cells organisms
EThuggX: I'd say I just cannot determine it... like sea horses, they are an oddity I have no whay of knowing if they should be like that, or they deviated from their natural path... like fags... I'm not a scientist...
ImRich66: well do you think it's natural for male seahorses to give birth?
ImRich66: maybe every other organism (sexual, not asexual) has been mutated for the female to give birth
EThuggX: If the only info I had is that the males give birth, I'd say no. I'm sure this is more to it than I could comprehend.
EThuggX: There is more to it I meant
ImRich66: well what about 1) giving birth to eggs, 2) or releasing eggs then having the male release sperm onto them
ImRich66: damn I forgot #3
EThuggX: Listen. I am sure of only one thing. Sex is the only natural way for humans to reproduce.
ImRich66: but how can you be sure
ImRich66: that's our whole argument, basically
EThuggX: It's a 'feeling'...
EThuggX: :-)
ImRich66: exactly, so this debate is completely pointless
ImRich66: for it's a debate on opinions
EThuggX: every debate on TNL is... ;-)
ImRich66: hmm, you've got a point... since almost everything is either morals or religion
ImRich66: however I stil feel your in need of human compassion =P
EThuggX: well, I think I'm in need of some water...
ImRich66: ...so go get a drink? unless it's filtered water
ImRich66: becuase that's not natural
ImRich66: or tap, that's not natural either
ImRich66: you can only drink spring water
ImRich66: I hope you realize the point I'm tryign to make
EThuggX: Tap evens it out, cleans out the unnatural pollutionn from people... ;-)
ImRich66: that almost everything you may use is unnatural in some way
ImRich66: tap isn't natural...
ImRich66: it's combined with unnatural substances
EThuggX: pollution in my spring isn't natural :-(
ImRich66: so your no longer allowed to drink
ImRich66: every form of liquid is unnature except sping water that isn't polluted
ImRich66: you can't clean your clothes with anything but unpolluted sping water
ImRich66: you can't watch tv
ImRich66: you can't be on the comp
ImRich66: you can't be sitting in the chair your in
EThuggX: I can do anything
ImRich66: you can't eat most vegetables
ImRich66: all of these are unnatural
ImRich66: if you can do anything, than you can clone people
EThuggX: You can't compare playing Dr. Frankenstien to using a PC
ImRich66: sure I can
ImRich66: PC is made unnaturally
ImRich66: as is a clone, in yuor opinion
EThuggX: well, yea, but it will just keep us going back and forth with no resolution
ImRich66: hence the "battle of opinions"
ImRich66: you can't even breathe the air your breathing
ImRich66: you would have to live in a naturally made bubble your whole life eating nothing but plants that have grown themselves without you
ImRich66: ..do you see where I'm going with this?
EThuggX: Yes, to a comical extreme.
ImRich66: well, not comical, but yes, an extreme
EThuggX: all things in moderation friend
ImRich66: I'm just trying to make a point, by going to the extreme
EThuggX: As far as I'm concerned, the potentail for bad with cloning outweighs the good, and it's too unnatural. That's my final say.
ImRich66: I never disagreed with the potential fo rbad
ImRich66: that's why I said I wouldn't agree with it unless it's perfected
ImRich66: but as for not believing clones are humans, I find that ludicrus
EThuggX: ok...
ImRich66: but something unnatural doesn't necessarily mean bad
ImRich66: we all live through something unnatural
EThuggX: It comes down to the damage of a unnatural act, or my personal opinion.
ImRich66: and it cloning was perfected?
ImRich66: there would be no damage
EThuggX: to get to 'perfection' requires very much damage. You want to be the guy who has to push a half formed mutanyt into a firepit?
ImRich66: huh?
EThuggX: you know the abominations they will be spitting out for years before it's perfected?
ImRich66: but with science nowaday, we can perfect it without experimenting
EThuggX: Not really...
ImRich66: it may take a hell of a long time, but it can be done
ImRich66: just curious, think dolly is unnatural?
EThuggX: even if it was perfected, IMO it could be too easily misused still.
ImRich66: and should be destoryed
EThuggX: Yes
ImRich66: well then, would you want to be the one who has to push the fully living dolly into a firepit?
ImRich66: a successful experiment
EThuggX: I wouldn't want to, but it would be the right thing.
ImRich66: well, what if you could insure it's perfection and never to be misused, would you still be against it?
ImRich66: why would it be right, why doesn't dolly deserve to live, she has the same functions as everyone else, and what if a clone made a great contribution to the world, still destory it?
ImRich66: everyone else being other sheeps
EThuggX: Probably.
It represents a potential danger to the other sheep, and because we think it's perfect doesn't mean it is. We could be introducing something horrible to the sheep genepool we don't even realize.
ImRich66: and if we weren't, and what potential danger? it is just like the other sheep
EThuggX: We aren't gods, and we don't now, nor will we ever, be able to KNOW a clone is perfect except maybe with a single celled organizm
EThuggX: the danger is we don't know
EThuggX: and the potential benefits are not justification
ImRich66: we're not tryign to make a clone perfect
ImRich66: hell I don't think clones should be made
ImRich66: but I think if they are they have a right to live
ImRich66: I don't see any danger, since they have the same exact genetic makeup as all other human beings
EThuggX: we can never deem them perfect, so how can you judge if it should exist?
ImRich66: out of compassion for the human species
ImRich66: we aren't perfect, either
EThuggX: Accoarding to what humans know it's a exact duplicate. I don't believe in god, or heven, but I do believe I don't know what else there is. What if there is a 'spirit' in each of us we can't create in a clone? We have no right to assume we know enough
ImRich66: it's not
ImRich66: and humans know it's not
ImRich66: I quote my post
EThuggX: it's not what?
ImRich66: exact duplicate
ImRich66: On another note, even with cloning, you will NOT, I repeat, NOT have the exact same genetic makeup as the parent
ImRich66: that was from my post
ImRich66: This is a real person, only born in a different way, but it has it's own mind and is completely independent from it's natural counterpart. Hell, the clone wouldn't even necessarily look the same as the parent, since the way you are is totally dependant on your genes, AND your evironment. So basically, you could have two completely different people with nothing alike besides their DNA, how does having the same DNA as some other person make you "not real." Your entire theory is flawed and therefor should be taken as a joke by others.
EThuggX: fine, assuming that even, still doesn't address what I said.
ImRich66: we create new spirits when cloning
ImRich66: that's the thing
ImRich66: "No. On the genetic level, the clone would be 99.9% identical to its parent. It would not be a complete copy because there are some important genes that would be contributed by the egg donor. These genes reside outside the nucleus.
Also, the clone would be subject to different environmental factors and a different upbringing to his/her genetic parent. This could result in a changed appearance and personality. If the recent research on the human genome has taught us anything, it is that we are far more than just our genes. "
EThuggX: You don't know enough, maybe we don't. Maybe spirits can only be created when a baby is created under my definition of natural... you don't, and can't know the entire picture
ImRich66: a spirit is a life giving force
ImRich66: or another definition is "person"
ImRich66: and clones are persons who can reproduce
EThuggX: it's like doing a puzzle with only half the pieces... you might figure out it's a picture of a sailboat, but you don't see all the waves inn the water (this is just a example), regardless of how hard you try, or how much you know, you won't know enough to saftley do what your arguming.
EThuggX: No, that's your definition of spirit
EThuggX: you do not know if a spirit even exists, but your defining it?
ImRich66: no, that's webster-merriam's definitino
EThuggX: Webster doesn't know either
ImRich66: and neither do you
EThuggX: exactly.
ImRich66: for all you know, you make a new spirit when striking a match
EThuggX: maybe, but you, me and no one else is in a position where they can decide that
ImRich66: but how can you say they deserve to die because it MAY not have a spirit
EThuggX: it's like giving a kid a gun... he might get hurt, he might not... not very responsible, its it?
ImRich66: how can you compare it to that?
EThuggX: Your proposing the creation of life that may or may not have everything it needs, and seem to feel the risk is of no concern...
ImRich66: but how do you know that through sexual reproduction it has everything it needs
ImRich66: whether or not we get souls may be random
ImRich66: shall we continue this later, I'm going to watch a movie
EThuggX: I don't reproduce, I avoid that risk :-)
EThuggX: ok
ImRich66: using condoms is unnatural, my final word for the hour =P
EThuggX: I don't have sex
I wish I had Jesse's girl...
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